[163934] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: PRISM: NSA/FBI Internet data mining project
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Phil Fagan)
Fri Jun 21 11:32:24 2013
In-Reply-To: <8D3ACC12-DC67-492C-AE97-A0B134FF282F@delong.com>
From: Phil Fagan <philfagan@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:30:19 -0600
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Errors-To: nanog-bounces+nanog.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@nanog.org
Good point; apparently the doctorine does protect against the case whereby
any collected data would have been found anway "with a court order."
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
> On Jun 21, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Phil Fagan <philfagan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would think this is only an issue if they throw out the Fourth in that
> when they use that data collected "inadvertantly" to build a case a again=
st
> you they use no other data collected under a proper warrant.
>
>
> That statement ignores a longstanding legal principle known as "fruit of
> the poison tree".
>
> If the purpose was to actually collect data on you, in the event you do
> something , they can simply run a query against this data post court
> order...then that's crossing the line.
>
>
> Indeed, they don't even seem to be required to bother with the court orde=
r
> any more. The standing FISA order seems to pretty much allow them to do a=
ll
> the required line crossing without any additional court order.
>
> I personally think there is nothing wrong with monitoring US
> communications - big difference between monitoring US communications and
> monitoring US persons communications.
>
>
> It's pretty clear that they are likely monitoring both.
>
> Owen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Dan White <dwhite@olp.net> wrote:
>
>> On 06/09/13 11:10 -0500, Dan White wrote:
>>
>>> Let me put my gold tipped tinfoil hat on in response to your statement.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/**world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-**
>> nsa-without-warrant<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-cou=
rt-nsa-without-warrant>
>>
>> If accurate, this is extremely concerning:
>>
>>
>>
>> Top secret documents submitted to the court that oversees surveillance
>> by US
>> intelligence agencies show the judges have signed off on broad orders
>> which
>> allow the NSA to make use of information "inadvertently" collected fro=
m
>> domestic US communications without a warrant.
>>
>> The documents show that even under authorities governing the collectio=
n
>> of
>> foreign intelligence from foreign targets, US communications can still
>> be
>> collected, retained and used.
>>
>> ...However, alongside those provisions, the Fisa court-approved polici=
es
>> allow the NSA to:
>>
>> =E2=80=A2 Keep data that could potentially contain details of US perso=
ns for up
>> to five years;
>>
>> Retain and make use of "inadvertently acquired" domestic
>> communications
>> if they contain usable intelligence, information on criminal activit=
y,
>> threat of harm to people or property, are encrypted, or are believed
>> to
>> contain any information relevant to cybersecurity;
>>
>>
>>
>> All protections afforded by the fourth amendment have essentially been
>> thrown into the (rather large) bit bucket by the FISA court, when it com=
es
>> to any bits which leave your premise.
>>
>> --
>> Dan White
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Phil Fagan
> Denver, CO
> 970-480-7618
>
>
>
--=20
Phil Fagan
Denver, CO
970-480-7618
