[5554] in APO Printshop
Re: Wedding invitations - late fees + accepting jobs
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Cat Thu Nguyen Huu)
Tue Jan 27 22:34:57 2009
Cc: apo-printshop@mit.edu
From: Cat Thu Nguyen Huu <catthu@MIT.EDU>
To: Lori Tsuruda <lori@pmd.org>
In-Reply-To: <9c3afc5b0901201952i3a7a8238n979575a00c906696@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:34:05 -0500
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I'm really sorry for my late reply. Anyways, I do not have much to say
beside the few following things.
If it's not feasible or efficient for the PSM to act as a go-between
among press ops and potential customers, then what's a more feasible
and efficient way? How should a potential customer get in touch and
communicate with a press operator?
If the majority thinks that potential customers should be presented
with the process we go through to get their jobs done, then I'll
accept that. However, my opinion on this is still unchanged. Briefly,
these are my points:
- I'm also a press operator and I do know the time and effort a press
operator has to put into a job.
- A refusal to accept a job with an explanation of why is a clear
implication of the operation limitations.
- Speaking from a customer's point of view, I do recognize and am
grateful when someone offers me a service. However, I'll definitely be
annoyed if they keep emphasizing my dependency on them, and that they
ARE doing me a service, and that I should be appreciating it.
- As I said to Len in another discussion, if a potential customer
chooses to contact us, that means they already have some ideas about
the differences between the printshop and computer printing and are
able to appreciate the differences.
About Anne's job: I'll have the cards in my hand by Friday; and I did
notice her in our first meeting that she should bring an extra of
10-15 cards, which is more than 10-15 percent of the cards she wants
back (90).
Cat
On Jan 20, 2009, at 10:52 PM, Lori Tsuruda wrote:
> I think that since letterpress printing is a special service
> performed by individual brothers who donate lengthy personal time,
> it really IS important that customers understand at least this
> aspect and operational limitations.
>
> I don't think that it's feasible or efficient for the PSM to act as
> a go-between among press ops and potential customers.
>
> I don't recall if I already wrote this (so please excuse any
> repetition):
> I think that wedding invitations are not good jobs for training or
> qualifying
> since the error rate tends to be higher for newbies and people tend
> not to
> purchase enough extra cardstock. Plus there is the issue of the paper
> type and coating, which can increase the error rate.
>
> An ideal training run has a few lines of type for a few hundred
> impressions
> in one color ink, like business cards, return address on the back of
> envelopes, and note cards.
>
> An ideal qualifying run can have more type (since all but 1-2 lines
> can be pre-set prior to the beginning of the qualifying) and more
> impressions.
> It can be more than one color, but only one color is needed for
> qualifying
> purposes.
>
> Btw, thanks to the %#@! snow plows that filled my parking space with
> heavy snow AFTER I shoveled it out for an hour on Sunday, I have
> reinjured both forearms/wrists in the process of reshoveling so that I
> could park and then load and unload 100 pounds of materials and
> equipment for yesterday's PMD-MLK project. So, I cannot train
> until I'm healed, ~1 month. I can still qualify (since this doesn't
> require that I lift the heavy chase or type cases).
>
> Yilfs,
> Lori
>
> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Cat Thu Nguyen Huu
> <catthu@mit.edu> wrote:
> Short version: if we want to progress in our goal of making the
> printshop service more well-known at MIT, I'd be more concerned
> about how we look from the outside than whether other people
> understand the printshop operation or not.
>
> Long version: (+ paragraphs about the current jobs at the end)
>
> it is more important, that potential customers understand that
> letterpress printing is very labor intensive.
> that is is NOT like using a word processor and a computer printer.
> that every character is on a physical piece of metal, that needs to
> be hand assembled, and dis-assembled.
> that every piece of paper needs to be feed and taken out of the
> press by hand
> and that there are other steps that take a lot of time
>
>
> While most customers who actively want their print jobs to be done
> this way are likely to know some differences between the press and a
> laser printer, I don't think we should assume that everyone
> understands the labor-intensiveness, nor should we try to give them
> some insights on our internal operations. "It takes 10 hours or more
> to do this job" is a reasonable thing to say, but beyond that I'll
> just let them arrive at their own conclusions. I think compassion is
> not to be expected in a money-involved business, even when the
> business is charged at-cost, because it doesn't matter whether the
> money part is profitable or not, if there's monetary payment there
> will be expectations . For examples, pretend that we don't charge
> the operating cost:
>
> 1/ The customer supplies cardstocks and ink, we print for them for
> free
>
> 2/ The customer doesn't supply anything, and we charge them for the
> materials
>
> Although 1/ and 2/ are the same thing for us, it doesn't have the
> same psychological effect on the other party.
>
> * it has always been the policy of the press shop that
>
> ONLY QUALIFIED PRESS OPERATORS CAN ACCEPT JOBS
>
> not the press shop manager
> not the service vice president
> not a chapter officer
> not God ; - }
>
>
> Talking about psychological effects, if one of our goals is to put
> the printshop back on regular operation within the extent where we
> can afford, telling the customer "I can't accept jobs because I'm
> just the manager, not an operator, and I can't tell you whether
> we'll accept this job or not until an operator decides to accept it"
> doesn't look very good either. I believe most customers will value a
> clear "No" much more than that ambiguity; and from our side, a clear
> "No" also looks much better than letting the answer hanging there.
> In the former, if I were a customer, at least the next time when I
> wanted to print something, I would try again because it wouldn't
> hurt to do. But if the latter were the case, trying would cost me
> time that I wouldn't have to waste if I used other more reliable
> services. The best thing I think I can do about this is to send an
> email to apo-printshop to ask if anyone can get the job done within
> the time the customer give us, and assume that APO brothers are
> responsible enough to not to say yes and suddenly decide that they
> don't have time. In case no one thinks they can, then either I will
> do it or it will be a no.
>
> * late fees have never been good in getting customers to give us
> enough notice.
> they create an expectation, that the APOster letterpress shop can
> get work done on short notice, if the customer is willing to pay
> more.
> when the reality is:
> getting a job printed depends on a qualified press op having the
> time to do the job
>
> So, just like having a fee doesn't guarantee that the job will be
> taken, having a late fee doesn't guarantee that a lately-noticed job
> will be taken, it means that in case it is there will be a late fee
> associated due to the inconvenience for the operator. If late fees
> are just not good in general and make us look more like a profiting
> business than a self-maintaining service, then I suggest we
> eliminate them altogether.
>
> </ long version>
>
> I understand Len's concerns about giving high-quality jobs to
> trainees, although I'd like to note that as a trainee I'd prefer
> something difficult and useful to something easy but relatively
> unnecessary. A reasonable compromise is to give the job to
> qualifying runs only, which will allows the trainee to get enough
> practice before. Or vice versa, give the job to the training runs
> only, because in the training run the trainer is likely to do the
> majority of the job anyways. I'm not sure which approach is better.
>
> Talking about which, I'd like to kindly note that currently we're
> having two people wanting to be trained/qualified, which fits nicely
> with the two jobs we have (and no, I did ask and Anne doesn't want
> the envelopes printed).
>
> Cat
>
> On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Leonard H Tower Jr. wrote:
>
> * it has always been the policy of the press shop that
>
> ONLY QUALIFIED PRESS OPERATORS CAN ACCEPT JOBS
>
> not the press shop manager
> not the service vice president
> not a chapter officer
> not God ; - }
>
> * the press shop manager has to try and find press ops to do jobs,
> NOT ACCEPT JOBS
>
> * if a press shop manager (psm) who is a press operator accepts a job,
> then he/she should be sure they have the time to do it for the
> customer by the time the customer needs it
>
> it's ok for the psm to try to get another press operator to do the
> job, even trying to get a journeyman and a wantabe press op together
> to get a training or qualifying run completed
>
> * late fees have never been good in getting customers to give us
> enough notice.
> they create an expectation, that the APOster letterpress shop can
> get work done on short notice, if the customer is willing to pay
> more.
> when the reality is:
> getting a job printed depends on a qualified press op having the
> time to do the job
>
> when we had many press ops who could print, it was a way to earn a
> little more money for the press fund.
> but we haven't had this many press ops in a long time
>
> it is more important, that potential customers understand that
> letterpress printing is very labor intensive.
> that is is NOT like using a word processor and a computer printer.
> that every character is on a physical piece of metal, that needs to
> be hand assembled, and dis-assembled.
> that every piece of paper needs to be feed and taken out of the
> press by hand
> and that there are other steps that take a lot of time
>
> a short way of saying this, is to tell the customer it could take a
> volunteer ten hours or more to do their print job
>
> * btw, i dislike training or qualifying on jobs that need high
> quality.
> though i do do it.
> it's hard for a novice to do a high quality job the first or second
> time out.
> which means, i do more of the real work, and they have less of a
> learning experience
>
> yiLFS -len
>
> ps: i suspect that the time frame Anne has for her wedding invitations
> will allow Cat to get me or Lori to use Anne's jobs for training or
> qualification runs, but maybe not ...
>
>
>
>
>
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">I'm really sorry for my late reply. =
Anyways, I do not have much to say beside the few following things. =
</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">If it's not feasible or efficient for the =
PSM to act as a go-between among press ops and potential customers, then =
what's a more feasible and efficient way? How should a potential =
customer get in touch and communicate with a press operator?</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">If the majority thinks that potential =
customers should be presented with the process we go through to get =
their jobs done, then I'll accept that. However, my opinion on this is =
still unchanged. Briefly, these are my points:</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">- I'm also a press operator and I do know =
the time and effort a press operator has to put into a job.</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">- A refusal to accept a job with an =
explanation of why is a clear implication of the operation =
limitations.</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">- Speaking from a customer's point of =
view, I do recognize and am grateful when someone offers me a service. =
However, I'll definitely be annoyed if they keep emphasizing my =
dependency on them, and that they ARE doing me a service, and that I =
should be appreciating it.</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">- As I said to Len in another =
discussion, if a potential customer chooses to contact us, that =
means they already have some ideas about the differences between the =
printshop and computer printing and are able to appreciate the =
differences.</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">About Anne's job: I'll have the cards in =
my hand by Friday; and I did notice her in our first meeting that she =
should bring an extra of 10-15 cards, which is more than 10-15 percent =
of the cards she wants back (90).</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">Cat</div><br><div><div>On Jan 20, 2009, at =
10:52 PM, Lori Tsuruda wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">I think =
that since letterpress printing is a special service performed by =
individual brothers who donate lengthy personal time, it really IS =
important that customers understand at least this aspect and operational =
limitations.<br> <br>I don't think that it's feasible or efficient for =
the PSM to act as a go-between among press ops and potential =
customers.<br><br>I don't recall if I already wrote this (so please =
excuse any repetition):<br> I think that wedding invitations are not =
good jobs for training or qualifying <br>since the error rate tends to =
be higher for newbies and people tend not to <br>purchase enough extra =
cardstock. Plus there is the issue of the paper <br> type and coating, =
which can increase the error rate.<br><br>An ideal training run has a =
few lines of type for a few hundred impressions<br>in one color ink, =
like business cards, return address on the back of envelopes, and note =
cards.<br> <br>An ideal qualifying run can have more type (since all but =
1-2 lines can be pre-set prior to the beginning of the qualifying) and =
more impressions.<br>It can be more than one color, but only one color =
is needed for qualifying<br> purposes.<br><br>Btw, thanks to the %#@! =
snow plows that filled my parking space with<br>heavy snow AFTER I =
shoveled it out for an hour on Sunday, I have <br>reinjured both =
forearms/wrists in the process of reshoveling so that I <br> could park =
and then load and unload 100 pounds of materials and <br>equipment for =
yesterday's PMD-MLK project. So, <u><b>I cannot train <br>until I'm =
healed, ~1 month. I can still qualify (since this doesn't<br> require =
that I lift the heavy chase or type =
cases).</b></u><br><br>Yilfs,<br>Lori<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Cat Thu Nguyen Huu <span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:catthu@mit.edu">catthu@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br> =
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Short =
version: if we want to progress in our goal of making the printshop =
service more well-known at MIT, I'd be more concerned about how we look =
from the outside than whether other people understand the printshop =
operation or not.<br> <br> Long version: (+ paragraphs about the current =
jobs at the end)<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> it is more important, that potential =
customers understand that<br> letterpress printing is very labor =
intensive.<br> that is is NOT like using a word processor and a =
computer printer.<br> that every character is on a physical piece =
of metal, that needs to<br> be hand assembled, and =
dis-assembled.<br> that every piece of paper needs to be feed and =
taken out of the<br> press by hand<br> and that there are =
other steps that take a lot of time<br> </blockquote> <br> <br> While =
most customers who actively want their print jobs to be done this way =
are likely to know some differences between the press and a laser =
printer, I don't think we should assume that everyone understands the =
labor-intensiveness, nor should we try to give them some insights on our =
internal operations. "It takes 10 hours or more to do this job" is a =
reasonable thing to say, but beyond that I'll just let them arrive at =
their own conclusions. I think compassion is not to be expected in a =
money-involved business, even when the business is charged at-cost, =
because it doesn't matter whether the money part is profitable or not, =
if there's monetary payment there will be expectations . For examples, =
pretend that we don't charge the operating cost:<br> <br> 1/ The =
customer supplies cardstocks and ink, we print for them for free<br> =
<br> 2/ The customer doesn't supply anything, and we charge them for the =
materials<br> <br> Although 1/ and 2/ are the same thing for us, it =
doesn't have the same psychological effect on the other party.<br> <br> =
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> * it =
has always been the policy of the press shop that<br> <br> ONLY =
QUALIFIED PRESS OPERATORS CAN ACCEPT JOBS<br> <br> not the press =
shop manager<br> not the service vice president<br> not a =
chapter officer<br> not God ; - }<br> </blockquote> <br> <br> =
Talking about psychological effects, if one of our goals is to put the =
printshop back on regular operation within the extent where we can =
afford, telling the customer "I can't accept jobs because I'm just the =
manager, not an operator, and I can't tell you whether we'll accept this =
job or not until an operator decides to accept it" doesn't look very =
good either. I believe most customers will value a clear "No" much more =
than that ambiguity; and from our side, a clear "No" also looks much =
better than letting the answer hanging there. In the former, if I were a =
customer, at least the next time when I wanted to print something, I =
would try again because it wouldn't hurt to do. But if the latter were =
the case, trying would cost me time that I wouldn't have to waste if I =
used other more reliable services. The best thing I think I can do about =
this is to send an email to apo-printshop to ask if anyone can get the =
job done within the time the customer give us, and assume that APO =
brothers are responsible enough to not to say yes and suddenly decide =
that they don't have time. In case no one thinks they can, then either I =
will do it or it will be a no.<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> * late fees have never been good in getting =
customers to give us<br> enough notice.<br> they create an =
expectation, that the APOster letterpress shop can<br> get work =
done on short notice, if the customer is willing to pay<br> =
more.<br> when the reality is:<br> getting a job =
printed depends on a qualified press op having the<br> time to do =
the job<br> </blockquote> <br> So, just like having a fee doesn't =
guarantee that the job will be taken, having a late fee doesn't =
guarantee that a lately-noticed job will be taken, it means that in case =
it is there will be a late fee associated due to the inconvenience for =
the operator. If late fees are just not good in general and make us look =
more like a profiting business than a self-maintaining service, then I =
suggest we eliminate them altogether.<br> <br> </ long version><br> =
<br> I understand Len's concerns about giving high-quality jobs to =
trainees, although I'd like to note that as a trainee I'd prefer =
something difficult and useful to something easy but relatively =
unnecessary. A reasonable compromise is to give the job to qualifying =
runs only, which will allows the trainee to get enough practice before. =
Or vice versa, give the job to the training runs only, because in the =
training run the trainer is likely to do the majority of the job =
anyways. I'm not sure which approach is better.<br> <br> Talking about =
which, I'd like to kindly note that currently we're having two people =
wanting to be trained/qualified, which fits nicely with the two jobs we =
have (and no, I did ask and Anne doesn't want the envelopes =
printed).<br> <br> Cat<br> <br> On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Leonard H =
Tower Jr. wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> * it has always been the policy of the press =
shop that<br> <br> ONLY QUALIFIED PRESS OPERATORS CAN ACCEPT =
JOBS<br> <br> not the press shop manager<br> not the service =
vice president<br> not a chapter officer<br> not God ; - =
}<br> <br> * the press shop manager has to try and find press ops to do =
jobs,<br> NOT ACCEPT JOBS<br> <br> * if a press shop manager (psm) =
who is a press operator accepts a job,<br> then he/she should be =
sure they have the time to do it for the<br> customer by the time =
the customer needs it<br> <br> it's ok for the psm to try to get =
another press operator to do the<br> job, even trying to get a =
journeyman and a wantabe press op together<br> to get a training =
or qualifying run completed<br> <br> * late fees have never been good in =
getting customers to give us<br> enough notice.<br> they =
create an expectation, that the APOster letterpress shop can<br> =
get work done on short notice, if the customer is willing to =
pay<br> more.<br> when the reality is:<br> getting a =
job printed depends on a qualified press op having the<br> time to =
do the job<br> <br> when we had many press ops who could print, it =
was a way to earn a<br> little more money for the press fund.<br> =
but we haven't had this many press ops in a long time<br> <br> =
it is more important, that potential customers understand that<br> =
letterpress printing is very labor intensive.<br> that is is =
NOT like using a word processor and a computer printer.<br> that =
every character is on a physical piece of metal, that needs to<br> =
be hand assembled, and dis-assembled.<br> that every piece =
of paper needs to be feed and taken out of the<br> press by =
hand<br> and that there are other steps that take a lot of =
time<br> <br> a short way of saying this, is to tell the customer =
it could take a<br> volunteer ten hours or more to do their print =
job<br> <br> * btw, i dislike training or qualifying on jobs that need =
high quality.<br> though i do do it.<br> it's hard for a =
novice to do a high quality job the first or second<br> time =
out.<br> which means, i do more of the real work, and they have =
less of a<br> learning experience<br> <br> yiLFS -len<br> <br> ps: =
i suspect that the time frame Anne has for her wedding invitations<br> =
will allow Cat to get me or Lori to use Anne's jobs for training or<br> =
qualification runs, but maybe not ...<br> </blockquote> <br> =
</blockquote></div><br><br =
clear=3D"all"><br><br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-8--744108843--
