[9368] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2964 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Jun 24 15:17:17 1998
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 12:02:18 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 2964
Today's topics:
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (I R A Aggie)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (Craig Berry)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (Matt Knecht)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (Brad Murray)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) (John Moreno)
Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!) <f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:53:08 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-2406981353080001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <3591333A.EBB@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>, Fred Riley
<f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk> wrote:
+ This is why there's such a contrast in atmospheres between c.l.p.m and
+ bit.listserv.toolb-l. On TOOLB-L the dominant ethos is of mutual aid,
It's the "mutual" part that escapes a lot of people's grasp...
James
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:03:04 GMT
From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <6mrf0o$4ko$8@marina.cinenet.net>
Olga (katzman@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Oh, ok and who should get to set the minimum standards, Craig?
: You?
Group consensus among the regular participants in this newsgroup. Those
operating too far from the consensus point will be (and have been)
chastised by more moderate participants.
: People who don't meet the "miminum standard" criteria should still be able
: to post.
Why? What good does it do them, or us? We're getting into "fire in a
crowded theater" territory. Posting a FAQ (or any other type of 'bad'
post) to clpm *does* have a cost which is borne by all participants.
: When a six year old is screaming "what is this
: word, what is this word", the teacher or parent, or the more
: intelligent authority figure usually does not respond by saying,
: "stupid" or "that doesn't deserve an answer". Sometimes not responding
: works very well.
No, but that's because they have the option of physically removing the
troublemaker from the classroom. The incessant screaming need not disrupt
the learning of other students. Unfortunately, clpm has no principal's
office where we can send unruly posters. We're all stuck in the same
classroom, if we want to learn here at all. And the only tools we have to
screen out disruptive noise are killfiles and scorn.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
"Every man and every woman is a star."
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:13:54 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <6mrfl2$qua$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> I just do not see the need to especially take the time to inform
> people how stupid they are.
Consider it a public service.
If at some points in my life someone hadn't told me I was being
stupid, I'd probably still be stupid. To be stupid while thinking
s/he's not makes for a pretty crappy world.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:08:25 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <6mrfap$pu5$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> I've spoken to several different people who over the last few days
> have come to despise the name Tom Christiansen and they vouch to
> never invest any money in his books because he was so insulting and
> rude to them.
These people need to take a hint and get over it.
IMO.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:09:55 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <6mrfdj$q8m$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> In fact they are afraid to post any more questions to the newgroups
> because of your ( and some other poeple's insults). I don't think
> discouraging the public from learning is a very nice thing to do.
Let's not forget that lurking is a great way to learn about
something. Sometimes, it's the best way.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:20:58 GMT
From: hex@voicenet.com (Matt Knecht)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <esbk1.32$t32.524597@news2.voicenet.com>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>It's great to hear that moeny is not a concern to you, and that you do
>this for fun, but the people you are insulting are truly not having too
>much fun. In fact they are afraid to post any more questions to the
>newgroups because of your ( and some other poeple's insults).
This is _exactly_ what many people are trying to accomplish with terse
referals to the FAQ and documentation. I'm sure they will all be glad
to hear it's working. I know I am.
>I don't think discouraging the public from learning is a very nice thing
>to do.
Many have said it before, and I'm sure many will say it again: The
_vast_ majority of of these replies that you take personal offense to
are meant to _make_ people learn for themselves (How many times have you
read the "Teach a man to fish..." metaphor in this thread alone?), and
not just get a free handout. People here _want_ to teach, but some
effort must be expended by the student before they post and after they
post.
>These people are trying, at least,
That's exactly the point. Posting a quick question to a newsgroup is
much easier (For people who don't know how to search the documentation)
than trying to figure it out for themselves. Any newsgroup should be
just about the last resort for questions, not the first.
These people are _not_ trying.
>and they seek help from people
>that tend to be a little to arrogan at times.
And too often that help isn't what they had planned on. Truly, in most
cases a referal to the docs and a reprimand for not going there first is
in order. Learning to use the docs is the best thing for many of these
people, not a quick fix answer here.
--
Matt Knecht - <hex@voicenet.com>
"496620796F752063616E207265616420746869732C20796F7520686176652066
617220746F6F206D7563682074696D65206F6E20796F75722068616E6473210F"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 10:37:03 -0700
From: murrayb@vansel.alcatel.com (Brad Murray)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <6mrdfv$7d6@cadre2.vansel.alcatel.com>
It seems Olga suggested...
>How is it you calculated that only .5 of the posts were offensive. I've
>spoken to several different people who over the last few days have come to
>despise the name Tom Christiansen and they vouch to never invest any money
>in his books because he was so insulting and rude to them.
It seems likely, however, that the people who feel insulted are pretty
unlikely to buy a book in any case, and even if they did they have already
demonstrated that they have no intention of reading and attempting to
understand a device as foreign as a manual. And that, I suspect, is the
point.
It is not, therefore, useful motivation to threaten that the books will not
be bought---it's a non-existant market that is threatening to disappear.
--
Brad Murray "The fall of modern man will be preceded by the
Software Analyst de-evolution of communications to the days of
Alcatel Canada oral tradition." --Tom Christiansen paraphrased
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:34:11 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624133247.14133C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
So why not let these newbie people decide what they need.
If they feel they need a straight answer, they should be able to post
ontheng in hopes of getting one.
If no body responds, then these people will take a hint. Pretty simple
Olga
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Matt Knecht wrote:
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >It's great to hear that moeny is not a concern to you, and that you do
> >this for fun, but the people you are insulting are truly not having too
> >much fun. In fact they are afraid to post any more questions to the
> >newgroups because of your ( and some other poeple's insults).
>
> This is _exactly_ what many people are trying to accomplish with terse
> referals to the FAQ and documentation. I'm sure they will all be glad
> to hear it's working. I know I am.
>
> >I don't think discouraging the public from learning is a very nice thing
> >to do.
>
> Many have said it before, and I'm sure many will say it again: The
> _vast_ majority of of these replies that you take personal offense to
> are meant to _make_ people learn for themselves (How many times have you
> read the "Teach a man to fish..." metaphor in this thread alone?), and
> not just get a free handout. People here _want_ to teach, but some
> effort must be expended by the student before they post and after they
> post.
>
> >These people are trying, at least,
>
> That's exactly the point. Posting a quick question to a newsgroup is
> much easier (For people who don't know how to search the documentation)
> than trying to figure it out for themselves. Any newsgroup should be
> just about the last resort for questions, not the first.
>
> These people are _not_ trying.
>
> >and they seek help from people
> >that tend to be a little to arrogan at times.
>
> And too often that help isn't what they had planned on. Truly, in most
> cases a referal to the docs and a reprimand for not going there first is
> in order. Learning to use the docs is the best thing for many of these
> people, not a quick fix answer here.
>
> --
> Matt Knecht - <hex@voicenet.com>
> "496620796F752063616E207265616420746869732C20796F7520686176652066
> 617220746F6F206D7563682074696D65206F6E20796F75722068616E6473210F"
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:35:42 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624133427.14133D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Wow, that was insightfull, I don't think it's a very good public service
to tell people they are stupid just because they are trying to learn and
make themselves smarter.
So you've never asked a "stupid" question?
I don't think insulting people is much of a public service
Olga
On 24 Jun 1998, Stuart McDow wrote:
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
> >
> > I just do not see the need to especially take the time to inform
> > people how stupid they are.
>
> Consider it a public service.
>
> If at some points in my life someone hadn't told me I was being
> stupid, I'd probably still be stupid. To be stupid while thinking
> s/he's not makes for a pretty crappy world.
>
> --
> Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
> smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
> "Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:42:59 GMT
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <1db4tg2.1p0byl3u1qa2iN@roxboro0-044.dyn.interpath.net>
Fred Riley <f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk> wrote:
> Joel Coltoff wrote:
>
> > As has been said many times before this newsgroup, unlike some
> > others, is not here for handouts. There are many people who will
> > kindly show you betters ways to do things once you've demonstrated
> > you made some effort yourself. This is not an unreasonable thing.
>
> Ah, right, it all makes sense now. Basically, don't ask for anything
> from the group until you've contributed, yes?
No, it's more like 'Hmn, I know this probably has a simple answer but I
can't figure it out and I've checked the manual and the faq and if it's
there I can't find it, whatever shall I do? I'll post to clpm. So here
goes: "Hi, I've got a problem that is just driving me crazy, I've looked
in the manual, I've looked in the faq, but I'm still /just not getting
it/. So, how *do* I remove a newline from the end of string? I've
tried, $string =~ s/(.+)\n$/$1/;, but it doesn't work"'.
Wait a couple of weeks, modify that a bit (be sure to leave in having
checked the manual and the faq) and post it under a different name, and
I'll guarantee that you won't get a flame from Tom C. or any of the
other regulars here - because this isn't a cluesless question even
though it's simple and extremely basic. The poster is obviously a
newbie as far as perl is concerned, but he's just as obviously NOT
clueless.
--
John Moreno
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 13:43:14 -0500
From: Fred Riley <f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World (oh, yes!)
Message-Id: <359148D7.7E4@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>
Craig Berry wrote:
> You're being disingenuous (or perhaps truly missing the point). By
> "making some effort yourself," Joel means that you have tried using the
> resources available to you to solve the problem about which you are
> posting, and to provide sufficient data in your post for others to help
> you. It's the difference between
>
> How do I strip leading and trailing whitespace from a string?
>
> and
>
> I read the FAQ about trimming leading and trailing whitespace, and
> got that part working, but I need to do it while leaving the
> trailing newline (if any) in place. Any ideas on how to do this?
> I tried [blah blah blah] but that doesn't work on [foo].
>
> See the difference?
I can see the difference, Craig, but it's a matter of personal
interpretation as to whether someone's made sufficient effort to be
worthy of a response - a harder person than yourself might still think
the above is a stupid question. I personally tend towards the view that
there's no such thing as a stupid question, and this is the ethos on
TOOLB-L. It might be gently pointed out to a poster that the answer they
required was in the FAQ, or on such-and-such a website, but they would
never be given grief about posting in the first place.
I've held this view ever since I started learning how to use computers,
back in 1988, when I had to learn nearly everything from scratch
because, with a couple of honourable exceptions, the computer techies I
talked to treated me like a complete time-wasting dumbass, which
unsurprisingly intimidated me from asking them any questions. The view
was reinforced when I used to train naive users in applications
software, where if you treat any question as "stupid" others will be put
off asking their own questions and will learn nothing.
By putting down newbies on this group who post "stupid questions"
regulars are putting them off posting, and maybe using Perl altogether.
The post by I R A Aggie (TIP: how to post good questions) is about as
welcoming as a porcupine's backside and makes it plain that anyone who
hasn't exhausted every possible avenue to find an answer before posting
a question is going to get their arse flamed off.
Anyway, it's plain what the dominant ethos of this NG is, so I'll not
ask any "stupid questions". For what it's worth, one kind soul did email
me privately and helped me solve a problem which had been griping me for
weeks, so I guess there are a few softies on this NG who are ready to
"give handouts".
Cheers
Fred
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 2964
**************************************
