[9367] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2962 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Jun 24 14:18:04 1998
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 11:01:43 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 2962
Today's topics:
Re: What a Crappy World dgris@rand.dimensional.com
Re: What a Crappy World <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World (Craig Berry)
Re: What a Crappy World <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Re: What a Crappy World <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (Craig Berry)
Re: What a Crappy World (Craig Berry)
Re: What a Crappy World <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: What module to download a gif? <Jonathan_Epstein@nih.gov>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:56:37 GMT
From: dgris@rand.dimensional.com
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mragi$89p$1@rand.dimensional.com>
[posted and mailed to the cited author]
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624093825.25068A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
<snip whining>
katzman@students.uiuc.edu >> killfile.global
[ YES ] comp.lang.perl.moderated
Daniel
--
Daniel Grisinger dgris@perrin.dimensional.com
"No kings, no presidents, just a rough consensus and
running code."
Dave Clark
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:02:31 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624115909.14882C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Some of these people have tried using it.
Some of the FAQ available does not work out because of the different
platforms, and different versions of pretty much everything out there.
I've had problems that even after finding the answer to my question on the
FAQ, it doesn't help. And most of these other people have as well.
So many people here are so cocky, as if they were born with some innate
knowledge of Perl and they never had to actually sit down and figure
anything out.
I am sure at some point in time Mr. Christiansen even has asked questions.
I don't think he would much appreciate if people insulted him by saying
"your questions are beyond stupidity".
Olga
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, I R A Aggie wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624093825.25068A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> + These newsgroups are made for discussion purposes, which includes asking,
> + somtimes not the most intelligent, questions. But the people asking those
> + questions arent' doing it because they want to be insulted, but merely
> + because they want to learn.
>
> You're right, Olga, it is a Crappy World.
>
> Its a crappy world, when one writes several hundred pages of documentation,
> and answers to Frequently Asked Questions, bundled with perl and available
> to every person running perl, and the people who would most benefit from
> using it either can't, or frequently *won't* use it.
>
> Yep, that's pretty crappy.
>
> James
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 16:59:44 GMT
From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrba0$4ko$2@marina.cinenet.net>
Scratchie (upsetter@ziplink.net) wrote:
: Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com> wrote:
: : In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624093825.25068A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
: : Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
:
: : # So I guess what I am trying to say is, wouldn't it be nice if when people
: : # had nothing good to say and they couldn't help someone, they just wouldn't
: : # say anything? I think so.
:
: : I don't. I would rather go down fighting than just abandon ship.
:
: And by insulting newbies you are fighting for what, exactly? Your right to
: insult people?
My thinking on this subject has changed completely over the past few
months, so please don't dismiss me as "one of them," a dyed-in-the-wool
newbie hater. I spent a long while trying to be patient and courteous
with the FAQ-askers and the desperately clue-impaired. But that clearly
does no good; every day, the S/N ratio in this group gets lower and lower.
So, while I don't engage in it myself, I now find myself supporting
rudeness in response to rude posters -- where the latter form of rudeness
encompasses posting of FAQs, repeated posts of the same question, and
other violations of netiquette. And here's why: I'm hoping that the
environment in clpm gets so idiot-hostile that only non-idiots dare to
post.
There, I've said it. I know I'm not PC in this regard, but damn it, there
*are* a whole bunch of idiots out there, and it's not incumbent on the
Perl-clueful to provide them a warm reception. They waste the time and
talents of some truly amazing people, many of whom have been driven from
clpm by the drop in quality here.
So, in my new way of thinking, heaping abuse on the heads of those who
willfully damage this group is a good thing. And please, I already know
the counterarguments, so don't bother reiterating them. I've simply come
to the conclusion that, in the end, responsibility for what is posted
rests with the poster. If someone can endure a serious flaming, learn
from it, and renounce idiocy to become a valued contributor to clpm,
great. If not...no great loss. One less person degrading the group.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
"Every man and every woman is a star."
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:21:12 GMT
From: Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrci8$q1@fridge.shore.net>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
: They can merely ignore those posts which they find insult their
: intelligence and move on to the next one.
But then they wouldn't get to devise a pithy, withering put-down. And what
fun is that? It's no fun answering a FAQ, but it's lots of fun to display
your intellectual superiority (compared to a rank newbie, but that's not
the point).
And besides, if anyone dares post here without reading every single word
of Perl documentation -- or without knowing how to use every single unix
utility available -- they deserve to have buckets of excrement dumped on
their head until they leave.
--Art
"In case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic" -- Homer Simpson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Ska & Reggae Calendar
http://www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:33:44 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624123241.697D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
No one is forcing you to respond to the "idiots"
You are more then welcome to just ignore the post and that way the
"idiots" can do their own reasearch or start asking people personally.
But I am just saying that insulting "idiots" no matter how "dumb" is not
a very nice thing to do.
Olga
On 24 Jun 1998, Craig Berry wrote:
> Scratchie (upsetter@ziplink.net) wrote:
> : Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com> wrote:
> : : In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624093825.25068A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> : : Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> :
> : : # So I guess what I am trying to say is, wouldn't it be nice if when people
> : : # had nothing good to say and they couldn't help someone, they just wouldn't
> : : # say anything? I think so.
> :
> : : I don't. I would rather go down fighting than just abandon ship.
> :
> : And by insulting newbies you are fighting for what, exactly? Your right to
> : insult people?
>
> My thinking on this subject has changed completely over the past few
> months, so please don't dismiss me as "one of them," a dyed-in-the-wool
> newbie hater. I spent a long while trying to be patient and courteous
> with the FAQ-askers and the desperately clue-impaired. But that clearly
> does no good; every day, the S/N ratio in this group gets lower and lower.
>
> So, while I don't engage in it myself, I now find myself supporting
> rudeness in response to rude posters -- where the latter form of rudeness
> encompasses posting of FAQs, repeated posts of the same question, and
> other violations of netiquette. And here's why: I'm hoping that the
> environment in clpm gets so idiot-hostile that only non-idiots dare to
> post.
>
> There, I've said it. I know I'm not PC in this regard, but damn it, there
> *are* a whole bunch of idiots out there, and it's not incumbent on the
> Perl-clueful to provide them a warm reception. They waste the time and
> talents of some truly amazing people, many of whom have been driven from
> clpm by the drop in quality here.
>
> So, in my new way of thinking, heaping abuse on the heads of those who
> willfully damage this group is a good thing. And please, I already know
> the counterarguments, so don't bother reiterating them. I've simply come
> to the conclusion that, in the end, responsibility for what is posted
> rests with the poster. If someone can endure a serious flaming, learn
> from it, and renounce idiocy to become a valued contributor to clpm,
> great. If not...no great loss. One less person degrading the group.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
> | Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
> "Every man and every woman is a star."
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:35:28 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624123414.697E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
No kidding,
Is it THAT gratifying to insult everyone that you get the chance to.
It's a lot easier to not respond, but I guess showing everyone on the
newsgroup how superior and great i am is much more gratifying then just
leaving these people alone. hmmm.
Olga
On 24 Jun 1998, Scratchie wrote:
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> : They can merely ignore those posts which they find insult their
> : intelligence and move on to the next one.
>
> But then they wouldn't get to devise a pithy, withering put-down. And what
> fun is that? It's no fun answering a FAQ, but it's lots of fun to display
> your intellectual superiority (compared to a rank newbie, but that's not
> the point).
>
> And besides, if anyone dares post here without reading every single word
> of Perl documentation -- or without knowing how to use every single unix
> utility available -- they deserve to have buckets of excrement dumped on
> their head until they leave.
>
> --Art
>
> "In case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic" -- Homer Simpson
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> National Ska & Reggae Calendar
> http://www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:31:38 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrd5q$iu3$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> .... why does Mr. Christiansen feel the need to insult people who
> are trying to learn.
I just don't understand why everyone feels so insulted by Tom. I
really don't.
I wonder, in my 20+ years of learning and working in the computer
science field (actually, I went the EE path), how many encounters I've
had with brilliant computer professionals (professors, TAs,
supervisors, cow orkers, etc) with an encyclopedic knowledge of their
field, and who have **no** patience **whatsoever** for people who
don't take the time to figure out things for themselves.
I guess I've been lucky. I've encountered many of these types, and
I've learned an unimaginable amount of knowledge from them. I consider
myself very lucky. I hold a great and deep respect for these teachers
(and they were all teachers).
And you know what? They were all like Tom!! Really!!
Had I let their gruff, terse, impatient manner get to me I wouldn't
have learned anything at all. I quickly learned to see past the
what-could-be-called-insulting remarks and saw that these people
genuinely cared that I learned things myself. (Give someone a fish...,
Teach someone to fish...) All I have is anecdotes, but in my
experience, there are a lot of people like Tom out there. Simple
impatience and frustration can be interpreted as insulting, which
isn't necessarily the case. Correlation is not the same as
causation. I honestly think that Tom never *tries* to insult anyone. I
hope that is the case.
Welcome to computer science (though not that people like Tom are
confined to just that field - you encounter them everywhere). Welcome
to the Usenet. People are going to be impatient and frustrated all the
time. If you don't let this kind of thing roll off your back, you'll
never let yourself learn anything from these people. And these people
sometimes *really* know what they're talking about. Tom (indeed,
anyone) is not here to be your friend. He's here to discuss perl. And
he does a fine job of it when there's something relevant to talk
about.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:40:33 GMT
From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrdmh$4ko$5@marina.cinenet.net>
Olga (katzman@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Some of the FAQ available does not work out because of the different
: platforms, and different versions of pretty much everything out there.
: I've had problems that even after finding the answer to my question on the
: FAQ, it doesn't help. And most of these other people have as well.
I have *never* *ever* seen a post of the form "I tried X from the FAQ, and
it produced problem Y...what gives?" flamed. *Never*. Feel free to cite
an example of this having occurred (as a specific DejaNews article
reference), if you can. I'll bet you a nickel you can't.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
"Every man and every woman is a star."
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:36:41 GMT
From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrdf9$4ko$4@marina.cinenet.net>
Olga (katzman@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: But if these techies don't want to help the newbies, no one is making
: them.
: They can merely ignore those posts which they find insult their
: intelligence and move on to the next one.
There are two major problems with this:
1. It's not always possible to tell a 'good' post from a 'bad' one just
from the subject line (usually, but not always). Even with a telltale
subject line, a 'bad' post forces one to spend some fraction of a
second evaluating its badness and killing the thread. A post whose
badness is evident only in the message body wastes many seconds in the
same evaluate-then-kill process. Small amounts of time, yes, but they
add up. Finding 'good' threads and posts takes on a "needle in the
haystack" character at times.
2. Experts are often sucked into 'bad' threads when bad questions are
initially ignored by the Perl clueful, only to then be answered by
the clueless. One can see this effect about ten times a week on the
"how to trim leading/trailing whitespace" metathread; this FAQ gets
asked, and four answers appear giving wrong or ludicrously inefficient
answers. Then an expert feels duty-bound to wade in and point out the
errors, lest virtuous lurking newbies be misinformed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
"Every man and every woman is a star."
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:32:34 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrd7i$li4$3@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| COURTESY CC OF THIS POSTING SENT TO CITED AUTHOR VIA EMAIL |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
In comp.lang.perl.misc, Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
:But if these techies don't want to help the newbies,
If we didn't want to help people, we wouldn't have give you over 1,000
typeset pages of free documentation in every Perl release. And we
wouldn't maintain the FAQ.
We do expect these resources to be used, however, before free handouts
are requested. Otherwise, we get insulted that our work should be so
disparaged. And you can see how we react to these insults. We tell them
that thank you very much, but we already gave at the office. That is,
the answer you seek is on your system.
Programmers must be empowered, not coddled. Otherwise, they remain
addicted to coddling, and never gain the the self-sufficiency to leave
the nest. This isn't skid row.
Note that in my *paid* tutorials, people pay me to repeat myself.
So I do. But I see no reason to do so for free. If I said it in the
standard docset, thither you shall be directed. If there's something
there that still doesn't make sense, then they are welcome to return
with reference and question both in hand.
This really is the best situation all around. Otherwise we'll all
get dragged down, and all our past work will be for nought.
--tom
--
I know I'm a pig-ignorant slut. --Andrew Hume
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:15:26 -0400
From: Jonathan Epstein <Jonathan_Epstein@nih.gov>
To: zirconx@my-dejanews.com
Subject: Re: What module to download a gif?
Message-Id: <3591342E.1F2DAF30@nih.gov>
url_get.pl will do this job (and is easier to install than libwww),
although it is somewhat deprecated at this point.
See:
http://dan.hcf.jhu.edu/ftp/Perl/
- Jonathan
zirconx@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Hello. I have a need to download (but via http) a few
> gif files every couple of minutes. I've looked over the CPAN
> site, and I am unsure what to use. libwww wants a lot of other
> modules to be installed, and I looked at them, it doesn't look
> like they will retreive a gif. libnet does not support http transfers.
> Can someone point me in the right direction? I just need a simple
> module to retreive some gif files every couple of minutes. TIA
> for any help.
>
> Ryan
>
> (please respond via email)
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 2962
**************************************
