[9369] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2965 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Jun 24 15:17:19 1998
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 12:03:23 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 2965
Today's topics:
Re: What a Crappy World (Patrick Timmins)
Re: What a Crappy World (T. Ames)
Re: What a Crappy World (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (I R A Aggie)
Re: What a Crappy World (I R A Aggie)
Re: What a Crappy World (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Re: What a Crappy World <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: What a Crappy World <ljz@asfast.com>
Re: What a Crappy World <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Re: What a Crappy World <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Re: What a Crappy World <f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:51:50 GMT
From: ptimmins@netserv.unmc.edu (Patrick Timmins)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrebl$vh1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624093825.25068A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> people who are trying to learn. You know, it would be so nice if upon
> reading a "stupid" question, Mr. Christiansen said, "Hmm, what a stupid
> question, and I feel instulted that people even ask these types of
> questions, but I am not going to insult this person. Nope, I'll just keep
> my mouth shut and let someone else answer this one." That would be so
> nice.
> So I guess what I am trying to say is, wouldn't it be nice if when people
> had nothing good to say and they couldn't help someone, they just wouldn't
> say anything? I think so.
Why not do both? Help them and give them a prod. Which is what virtually every
FAQ I've ever seen on this list has received. You may not like the help, just
like you may not like wound debridement or vaccination shots, but it is, in
fact, still help (and the appropriate help at that).
Don't be such a big baby! :)
Patrick Timmins
U. Nebraska Medical Center
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:10:17 GMT
From: ames0009@tc.umn.edu (T. Ames)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <35914065.5006321@news.tc.umn.edu>
On 24 Jun 1998 17:32:34 GMT, Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
wrote:
<response to Olga...>
>--tom
>--
>I know I'm a pig-ignorant slut. --Andrew Hume
I've noticed (and I'm not the only one) that you use your sigs. as a
means to further insulting people. This group is really taking an
ugly turn.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:56:59 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrelb$n5f$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net> writes:
>
> reading every single word of Perl documentation
Hmm. Not a bad idea at all. When you buy a new thingy that comes with
a user's manual, don't you read the manual first before you plug the
thingy in and turn it on? I read the pink Camel from cover to cover
before I coded my first perl program (a long time ago). Most of the
blue Camel is in the bundled docs, so you don't have to worry about
shelling out any money. I really don't think that it's unreasonable
for someone to read the docs before asking questions.
> or without knowing how to use every single unix utility available
Given perl's heritage, I don't think that's all that unreasonable
either. Perl was intended (among other things) to be a replacement for
(and/or companion to) things like sed, awk, sh, find, ls, and a host
of other unix thingys. IMO, there is no excuse for asking a dumb
question in a perl newsgroup because you don't understand how /bin/sh
works.
"A basic understanding of the computer and its OS is assumed"
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:09:05 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-2406981409050001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624115909.14882C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
+ I am sure at some point in time Mr. Christiansen even has asked questions.
+ I don't think he would much appreciate if people insulted him by saying
+ "your questions are beyond stupidity".
Hi, Olga, here's an example of a stupid question and the correct response.
The Names have been Changed to Protect the Guilty.
----quote----
: I was wondering if there is any builtin function in Perl for returning
: the length of a string. If not, what's the most efficient way to do
: this?
:
: Sorry if this is i the FAQ, but I have no web access at the moment...
What does having web access have to do with anything? The complete Perl
docs are delivered as part of every standard distribution. If you can run
perl without a net connection, then you can read the docs without a net
connection.
Since you know you're looking for a function, you'd use the perlfunc
document. Searching that document for the word 'length' gives the answer
to your question in about two seconds, some thousands of times faster than
posting the question to Usenet and waiting for a reply.
Use the doc. The doc is your friend.
----end quote----
James
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:05:51 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-2406981405510001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624115909.14882C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
+ Some of these people have tried using it.
How do you think I got where I am? How do you think most of the rest of
us here who are past the newness stage of perl got there?
Out of curiousity, are you a programmer? Why do I get the feeling that
the answer is "no"?
+ Some of the FAQ available does not work out because of the different
+ platforms, and different versions of pretty much everything out there.
Please see my post <fl_aggie-2406981247580001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu> for
some tips on writting questions...
James
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:17:14 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrfra$rlk$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
ames0009@tc.umn.edu (T. Ames) writes:
>
> I've noticed (and I'm not the only one) that you use your sigs. as a
> means to further insulting people. This group is really taking an
> ugly turn.
Really. I thought they were just interesting.
This isn't a place for the overly sensitive. Nor is the computer
industry in general. Nor is the Usenet in general.
FYI.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:25:45 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624132327.14133A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Ok, I agree the question was not posted by a guru, but the response was
excellent. It was not geared towareds insulting this gentelman, but rather
explained to him that the web is not the only way to get help.
Apparantly he did not know that and now he does.
Was it difficult to post this type of a response?
Probably not too difficult. Did you help the newbie? Yes you did.
Does he feel intimidated? No.
Did he learn? yes.
See, it's pretty simple
Olga
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, I R A Aggie wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624115909.14882C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> + I am sure at some point in time Mr. Christiansen even has asked questions.
> + I don't think he would much appreciate if people insulted him by saying
> + "your questions are beyond stupidity".
>
> Hi, Olga, here's an example of a stupid question and the correct response.
> The Names have been Changed to Protect the Guilty.
>
> ----quote----
>
> : I was wondering if there is any builtin function in Perl for returning
> : the length of a string. If not, what's the most efficient way to do
> : this?
> :
> : Sorry if this is i the FAQ, but I have no web access at the moment...
>
> What does having web access have to do with anything? The complete Perl
> docs are delivered as part of every standard distribution. If you can run
> perl without a net connection, then you can read the docs without a net
> connection.
>
> Since you know you're looking for a function, you'd use the perlfunc
> document. Searching that document for the word 'length' gives the answer
> to your question in about two seconds, some thousands of times faster than
> posting the question to Usenet and waiting for a reply.
>
> Use the doc. The doc is your friend.
>
> ----end quote----
>
> James
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:31:00 -0500
From: Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624132646.14133B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Well, unfortunately your feeling is incorrect,
I am a programmer, sorry.
I have just had good encounters and bad enconters learning to become one.
And one of my most admired role models was a TA I had in school, freshman
year,when i was still deciding what to do.
I didn't think I could do CS because I felt I was not intelligent
enough. However, this guy would explain the most basic facts and answer
the stupdiest questions in a very calm and respectable manner. I honestly
think that because of his attitude i stayed in the program, and I am
damned glad I did. Not to get all sentimental or anything, but I am just
saying that something that small can make a difference.
Why not just be respectfull and cut out the rude insults.
It's not liek the market for programmers is getting tight. There is
plenty of room for everyone, so why not help.
Olga
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, I R A Aggie wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980624115909.14882C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> + Some of these people have tried using it.
>
> How do you think I got where I am? How do you think most of the rest of
> us here who are past the newness stage of perl got there?
>
> Out of curiousity, are you a programmer? Why do I get the feeling that
> the answer is "no"?
>
> + Some of the FAQ available does not work out because of the different
> + platforms, and different versions of pretty much everything out there.
>
> Please see my post <fl_aggie-2406981247580001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu> for
> some tips on writting questions...
>
> James
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:09:54 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrfdi$ol8$3@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In comp.lang.perl.misc, ames0009@tc.umn.edu (T. Ames) writes:
:>I know I'm a pig-ignorant slut. --Andrew Hume
:
:I've noticed (and I'm not the only one) that you use your sigs. as a
:means to further insulting people. This group is really taking an
:ugly turn.
Gosh no. I do no such thing! I don't even know what sig is there.
It's something inews chooses for me.
--tom
The following program gives you random signatures by using
named pipes. It expects the signatures file to have records
in the format of the I<fortune> program--that is, each
possibly multiline record is terminated with C<"%%\n">.
Here's an example:
Make is like Pascal: everybody likes it, so they go in and change it.
--Dennis Ritchie
%%
I eschew embedded capital letters in names; to my prose-oriented eyes,
they are too awkward to read comfortably. They jangle like bad typography.
--Rob Pike
%%
God made the integers; all else is the work of Man.
--Kronecker
%%
I'd rather have :rofix than const. --Dennis Ritchie
%%
If you want to program in C, program in C. It's a nice language.
I use it occasionally... :-) --Larry Wall
%%
Twisted cleverness is my only skill as a programmer.
--Elizabeth Zwicky
%%
Basically, avoid comments. If your code needs a comment to be understood,
it would be better to rewrite it so it's easier to understand.
--Rob Pike
%%
Comments on data are usually much more helpful than on algorithms.
--Rob Pike
%%
Programs that write programs are the happiest programs in the world.
--Andrew Hume
%%
We check to see whether we're already running by using a file with
our pid in it. If sending a signal number 0 determines that pid still
exists (or, rarely, that something else has reused it), we just exit.
We also look at the current Usenet posting to decide whether to look for a
per-newsgroup signature file. That way you can have different signatures
for each newsgroup you post to. For variety, a global signature file
is still used on occasion even if a per-newsgroup file exists.
You can use I<sigrand> even on systems without named pipes if you remove
the code to create a named pipe, and extend the sleep interview before
file updates. Then I<.signature> would just be a regular file. Another
portability concern is that the program forks itself in the background,
which is almost like becoming a daemon. If you have no C<fork> call,
just comment it out.
Here's the full program:
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
# sigrand - supply random fortunes for .signature file
use strict;
# config section variables
use vars qw( $NG_IS_DIR $MKNOD $FULLNAME $FIFO $ART $NEWS $SIGS $SEMA
$GLOBRAND $NAME );
# globals
use vars qw( $Home $Fortune_Path @Pwd );
################################################################
# begin configuration section
# should really read from ~/.sigrandrc
gethome();
# for rec/humor/funny instead of rec.humor.funny
$NG_IS_DIR = 1;
$MKNOD = "/bin/mknod";
$FULLNAME = "$Home/.fullname";
$FIFO = "$Home/.signature";
$ART = "$Home/.article";
$NEWS = "$Home/News";
$SIGS = "$NEWS/SIGNATURES";
$SEMA = "$Home/.sigrandpid";
$GLOBRAND = 1/4; # chance to use global sigs anyway
# $NAME should be (1) left undef to have program guess
# read address for signature maybe looking in ~/.fullname,
# (2) set to an exact address, or (3) set to empty string
# to be omitted entirely.
$NAME = ''; # means no name used
## $NAME = "me\@home.org\n";
# end configuration section -- HOME and FORTUNE get autoconf'd
################################################################
setup(); # pull in inits
justme(); # make sure program not already running
fork && exit; # background ourself and go away
open (SEMA, "> $SEMA") or die "can't write $SEMA: $!";
print SEMA "$$\n";
close(SEMA) or die "can't close $SEMA: $!";
# now loop forever, writing a signature into the
# fifo file. if you don't have real fifos, change
# sleep time at bottom of loop to like 10 to update
# only every 10 seconds.
for (;;) {
open (FIFO, "> $FIFO") or die "can't write $FIFO: $!";
my $sig = pick_quote();
for ($sig) {
s/^((:?[^\n]*\n){4}).*$/$1/s; # trunc to 4 lines
s/^(.{1,80}).*? *$/$1/gm; # trunc long lines
}
# print sig, with name if present, padded to four lines
if ($NAME) {
print FIFO $NAME, "\n" x (3 - ($sig =~ tr/\n//)), $sig;
} else {
print FIFO $sig;
}
close FIFO;
# Without a microsleep, the reading process doesn't finish before
# the writer tries to open it again, which since the reader exists,
# succeeds. They end up with multiple signatures. Sleep a tiny bit
# between opens to give readers a chance to finish reading and close
# our pipe so we can block when opening it the next time.
select(undef, undef, undef, 0.2); # sleep 1/5 second
}
die "XXX: NOT REACHED"; # you can't get here from anywhere
################################################################
# Ignore SIGPIPE in case someone opens us up and then closes the fifo
# wihtout reading it; look in a .fullname file for their login name.
# Try to determine the fully qualified hostname. look our for silly
# ampersands in passwd entries. make sure we have signatures or fortunates.
# build a fifo if we need to.
sub setup {
$SIG{PIPE} = 'IGNORE';
unless (defined $NAME) { # if $NAME undef in config
if (-e $FULLNAME) {
$NAME = `cat $FULLNAME`;
die "$FULLNAME should contain only 1 line, aborting"
if $NAME =~ tr/\n// > 1;
} else {
my($user, $host);
chop($host = `hostname`);
($host) = gethostbyname($host) unless $host =~ /\./;
$user = $ENV{USER} || $ENV{LOGNAME} || $Pwd[0]
or die "intruder alert";
($NAME = $Pwd[6]) =~ s/,.*//;
$NAME =~ s/&/\u\L$user/g; # can't believe some folks still do this
$NAME = "\t$NAME\t$user\@$host\n";
}
}
check_fortunes() if !-e $SIGS;
unless (-p $FIFO) { # -p checks whether it's a named pipe
if (!-e _) {
system("$MKNOD $FIFO p") && die "can't mknod $FIFO";
warn "created $FIFO as a named pipe\n";
} else {
die "$0: won't overwrite file .signature\n";
}
} else {
warn "$0: using existing named pipe $FIFO\n";
}
# get a good random number seed. not needed if 5.004 or better.
srand(time() ^ ($$ + ($$ << 15)));
}
# choose a random signature
sub pick_quote {
my $sigfile = signame();
if (!-e $sigfile) {
return fortune();
}
open (SIGS, "< $sigfile") or die "can't open $sigfile";
local $/ = "%%\n";
local $_;
my $quip;
rand($.) < 1 && ($quip = $_) while <SIGS>;
close SIGS;
chomp $quip;
return $quip || "ENOSIG: This signature file is empty.\n";
}
# See whether ~/.article contains a Newsgroups line. if so, see the first
# group posted to and find out whether it has a dedicated set of fortunes.
# otherwise return the global one. also, return the global one randomly
# now and then to spice up the sigs.
sub signame {
(rand(1.0) > ($GLOBRAND) && open ART) || return $SIGS;
local $/ = '';
local $_ = <ART>;
my($ng) = /Newsgroups:\s*([^,\s]*)/;
$ng =~ s!\.!/!g if $NG_IS_DIR; # if rn -/, or SAVEDIR=%p/%c
$ng = "$NEWS/$ng/SIGNATURES";
return -f $ng ? $ng : $SIGS;
}
# Call the fortune program with -s for short flag until
# we get a small enough fortune or ask too much.
sub fortune {
local $_;
my $tries = 0;
do {
$_ = `$Fortune_Path -s`;
} until tr/\n// < 5 || $tries++ > 20;
s/^/ /mg;
$_ || " SIGRAND: deliver random signals to all processes.\n";
}
# Make sure there's a fortune program. Search
# for its full path and set global to that.
sub check_fortunes {
return if $Fortune_Path; # already set
for my $dir (split(/:/, $ENV{PATH}), '/usr/games') {
return if -x ($Fortune_Path = "$dir/fortune");
}
die "Need either $SIGS or a fortune program, bailing out";
}
# figure out how directory
sub gethome {
@Pwd = getpwuid($<);
$Home = $ENV{HOME} || $ENV{LOGDIR} || $Pwd[7]
or die "no home directory for user $<";
}
# "There can be only one." --the Highlander
sub justme {
if (open SEMA) {
my $pid;
chop($pid = <SEMA>);
kill(0, $pid) and die "$0 already running (pid $pid), bailing out";
close SEMA;
}
}
--
Procedure names should reflect what they do; function names should reflect
what they return. --Rob Pike
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 14:34:18 -0400
From: Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <lthg1ad4yd.fsf@asfast.com>
jhtodd@students.uiuc.edu (jeremy howard todd) writes:
> Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
> >So I guess what I am trying to say is, wouldn't it be nice if when people
> >had nothing good to say and they couldn't help someone, they just wouldn't
> >say anything? I think so.
>
> It's not out of malice so much as frustration, I think. Many
> people come into newsgroups and ask a very simple question that has
> been asked so many times before that it was included in an
> easy-to-find FAQ. People put a lot of work into maintaining FAQ lists,
> and when beginners ignore them and keep asking the same questions, it
> shows they are not willing to do any research on the subject themselves,
> but expect others to do it for them. So it's not because of their
> lack of knowledge so much as their lack of initiative.
But it's almost always a brand new beginner that comes here with each
of these simple questions. The phrase "when beginners ignore them and
keep asking the same questions" sounds almost as if all these
questions are seen as having been asked by the same person who keeps
coming back over and over ... or perhaps as if they're posed by
members of some kind of "newbies" group who are in constant
communication with one another.
I occasionally get the impression that some of us actually have
started to view "newbies" in this manner. It's understandable that
this misconception might have taken hold of a few people, given that
here in usenet, there are no faces and voices to associate with the
words that are posted here.
It's probably worthwhile to remind oneself that most of these "newbie"
posts are submitted by new people each time.
Every fall of every year, second-grade teachers in the U.S. get a new
crop of children who can barely read. After having spent nine months
teaching last year's crop the rudiments of reading, do these teachers
then assume that the new batch that is just arriving this fall should
already know everything that they taught to last year's bunch? Any
teachers who make this silly assumption and then behave in an
insulting and exasperated manner towards each new crop of kids that
shows up every fall should choose a new profession ... as well as seek
psychological help for their inability to comprehend reality.
By the same token, those who have taken it upon themselves to be
teachers here in c.l.p.misc should also practice the same patience and
understanding that good elementary school teachers need to practice
... or else stop trying to be teachers in the first place.
I'm grateful to people such as Tom Phoenix, who, although he seems to
be barely able to contain his exasperation at times, almost always
manages to come up with a polite way to refer "newbies" to the
documentation and the appropriate forums for their questions. This is
a sign of maturity on your part, Tom, and if you're reading this, I
want you to know that I applaud and admire your efforts ... as well as
those of all the other people here who also treat "newbies" in a
similar, respectful manner.
> That said, I agree that it goes too far a lot of times. If the
> question is really that simple, it doesn't take much longer to politely
> answer it and -then- refer them to the FAQ for more information than it
> does to flame them about it.
... or if you're one of those people who truly believes in your heart
that answering the question in *any* manner would somehow be feeding
the addiction of a pathologically out-of-control freeloader and all
the other pathologically out-of-control freeloaders who are out there
reading this group, then leave off the answer to the question, but why
not at least still make the effort to refer the person to the FAQ in a
polite, respectful manner instead of via childish insults?
--
Lloyd Zusman ljz@asfast.com
perl -e '$n=170;for($d=2;($d*$d)<=$n;$d+=(1+($d%2))){for($t=0;($n%$d)==0;
$t++){$n=int($n/$d);}while($t-->0){push(@r,$d);}}if($n>1){push(@r,$n);}
$x=0;map{$x+=(($_>0)?(1<<log($_-0.5)/log(2.0)+1):1)}@r;print"$x\n"'
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:32:07 GMT
From: Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrgn7$5ol@fridge.shore.net>
Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:
: So, while I don't engage in it myself, I now find myself supporting
: rudeness in response to rude posters -- where the latter form of rudeness
: encompasses posting of FAQs, repeated posts of the same question, and
: other violations of netiquette. And here's why: I'm hoping that the
: environment in clpm gets so idiot-hostile that only non-idiots dare to
: post.
Too bad that this approach will never work. The only way idiots could know
that the group is idiot-hostile is by reading the group. And these people
-- we all agree -- don't read the group before posting. They are idiots.
The only people you're going to discourage from posting are intelligent
beginners who unknowingly post FAQs or non-perl-related questions. Such
people will leave the group wondering why everybody is such an asshole,
while the idiots will continue to post whatever thoughts pop into their
heads.
--Art
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Ska & Reggae Calendar
http://www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:38:56 GMT
From: Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrh40$5ol@fridge.shore.net>
Stuart McDow <smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu> wrote:
: Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net> writes:
:>
:> reading every single word of Perl documentation
: Hmm. Not a bad idea at all. When you buy a new thingy that comes with
: a user's manual, don't you read the manual first before you plug the
: thingy in and turn it on? I read the pink Camel from cover to cover
: before I coded my first perl program (a long time ago). Most of the
>From the Blue Camel:
Most important, you don't have to know everything there is to know about
Perl before you can write useful programs. .... You can program in Perl
Baby-Talk and we promise not to laugh..."
Too bad that's not part of the charter for this group.
:> or without knowing how to use every single unix utility available
: Given perl's heritage, I don't think that's all that unreasonable
: either.
[snip]
: "A basic understanding of the computer and its OS is assumed"
So your definition of a "basic understanding" is "complete and accurate
knowledge of every single command and application available" ? ?
--Art
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Ska & Reggae Calendar
http://www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 13:51:00 -0500
From: Fred Riley <f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <35914AA9.1DFF@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>
Stuart McDow wrote:
>
> Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net> writes:
> > or without knowing how to use every single unix utility available
>
> Given perl's heritage, I don't think that's all that unreasonable
> either. Perl was intended (among other things) to be a replacement for
> (and/or companion to) things like sed, awk, sh, find, ls, and a host
> of other unix thingys. IMO, there is no excuse for asking a dumb
> question in a perl newsgroup because you don't understand how /bin/sh
> works.
>
> "A basic understanding of the computer and its OS is assumed"
Uh-huh. And if you're not a Unix geek? If you're using Perl on Win95/NT?
If you're a Unix novice?
Not everyone has access to Unix boxes, and some perverts even run
websites and CGI scripts from PCs. Strange, but true. Not being privy to
the arcane and esoteric world of Unix doesn't disqualify a person from
asking questions about Perl. Unless, of course, you'd prefer that Perl
stay the private preserve of Unix geeks...
Fred
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 2965
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