[28059] in resnet
Re: Survey on ResNet Services
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Doughty, Marc)
Thu Nov 1 17:53:48 2012
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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 17:52:10 -0400
Reply-To: Resnet Forum <RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu>
From: "Doughty, Marc" <marc_doughty@brown.edu>
To: RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu
In-Reply-To: <2D88F551AD109B41A7871DA7A1C40B58023DCF22@arborexmbx2.UTORARBOR.UTORAD.Utoronto.ca>
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>
> Cost of cabling > Cost of switching equipment
Yes, but I think it's folly to declare wired 'dead'. I think there's some
agreement on that.
Now assuming that the folks before us 'did it right the first time' and
laid the best cable they could get (5e?), then you're talking about
updating cables every 15 years. If upkeep is painful, then may I suggest
making students pay for damage done to in-room ports?
The question of what to do about multiple wired devices is a complicated one
I think the answer here is to get away from access control that 'switches
the port' and instead use kinds that 'authenticate the client', then let
users attach switches.
Think 802.1x, but with reasonable policies: Unauthenticated clients get
internet access, but no 'internal' access. All traffic is tagged at a low
priority and routed right out to a NAT on the 'outside'. Authenticated
clients route at normal priority to an internal IP. Frankly, I don't care
about making sure clients are secure (via a NAC supplicant), I care about
being able to identify who's zombie machine is attacking things, and 802.1x
does this.
but I think it will gradually go away as more and more devices just adopt
> wifi for simplicity of user setup (if for no other practical reason)
Apple tend to be the first ones to add new stuff and drop the old
(floppies, USB, etc.). They're still packing Ethernet on the back of the
Apple TV, and the experience of a Roku or Apple TV on wired is MUCH better.
I don't think Ethernet is going away anytime soon. I actually think the
quality and speed of most wireless connections is worse now than it was
five years ago. Everywhere I go, the 2.4Ghz spectrum is almost totally
hosed by too many APs all stepping on each other, and lots of set-top and
handheld devices don't do 5Ghz.
- Marc Doughty
"If you aren't sure who is the give-way vessel, you are the give-way
vessel."
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Paul Morrison <paul.morrison@utoronto.ca>wrote:
> Cost of cabling >>>>>> Cost of switching equipment for the most part - I
> think the savings would be small.
>
> The question of what to do about multiple wired devices is a complicated
> one - but I think it will gradually go away as more and more devices just
> adopt wifi for simplicity of user setup (if for no other practical reason)
>
> Paul Morrison
> Computing Services Coordinator
> University College - University of Toronto
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Resnet Forum [mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Andy
> Voelker
> Sent: November-01-12 5:08 PM
> To: RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
> Subject: Re: [RESNET-L] Survey on ResNet Services
>
> I have heard some institutions installing the wiring for every room, but
> then only putting in minimal switching equipment. Then they rely on user
> request to activate and patch that port to a real switch. If you don't
> request it, you don't get it. I means fulfilling requests and possibly
> changing out equipment once in a while, possibly creating a mess. However,
> it might save money on the equipment at least.
>
> If you're doing this or considering it, why don't you chime in and tell us
> about the cost/benefit?
>
> -- Andy Voelker
> Manager of Student Computing in the Technology Commons WCU Staff Senator,
> UNC Staff Assembly Western Carolina University
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Resnet Forum [mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Derek
> Buchanan
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:37 AM
> To: RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
> Subject: Re: Survey on ResNet Services
>
> We have gotten that argument too here at Mary Baldwin. The problem is
> when the timeline gets closer to the mid-semester and the student
> population all want their Facebook, WOW, and Xboxes. Most find out pretty
> quickly that network cables are cheaper than the cost of their
> frustrations. If the person is merely checking e-mail or reading webpages
> for news, research, etc. then wireless speed is not that big a factor.
> However our gamers, streaming video addicts, and the power Facebook users
> are not going for it and granted these are the more online intensive users.
> You have to understand that your home network with fewer than 10 people is
> vastly different than a wireless network shared with 600 on-campus
> students, and then you have the potential of Fac/Staff on that connection.
> We treat wireless as a convenience technology, not an always on service
> like the wired network.
>
> Derek
> Mary Baldwin College
>
> P.S.
> Until recently, we were only on a 50MB connection that was upgraded to
> 100MB. We have not dropped below 97% usage during school sessions.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Duffin, Gregory J <DUFFIN001@gannon.edu>
> wrote:
> > The problem with the wired connection is 98% of our students won't use
> it.
> > We had every room wired and the students still wanted wireless. Waste
> > of money to keep installing network jacks and switches when there not
> > being used. We even explained how wireless works and why it is slower
> > and they basically refused to use the wired. Their statements are
> > that they use wireless at home and it works great there.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------------------------------------
> >
> > Greg Duffin
> >
> > Systems Manager
> >
> > Information Technology Services
> >
> > Gannon University
> >
> > 109 University Square
> >
> > Erie, PA 16541
> >
> > (814) 871-7583
>
> ___________________________________________________
> You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
> http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> ___________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________
> You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
> http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> ___________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________
> You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives,
> go to http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> ___________________________________________________
>
___________________________________________________
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--bcaec54ee4eaf2fe2904cd7607af
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-=
serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Cost of cabling >=
; Cost of switching equipment</span></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Yes, but I think it's folly to declare wired 'd=
ead'. I think there's some agreement on that.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Now assuming that the folks before us 'did it right the first time&=
#39; and laid the best cable they could get (5e?), then you're talking =
about updating cables every 15 years. If upkeep is painful, then may I sugg=
est making students pay for damage done to in-room ports?</div>
<div><br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
3px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">The question of what to do about mul=
tiple wired devices is a complicated one</span></blockquote></div><div><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;=
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I think the answer=
here is to get away from access control that 'switches the port' a=
nd instead use kinds that 'authenticate the client', then let users=
attach switches.</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div><div><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;backg=
round-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Think 802.1x, but with reasonable policies: U=
nauthenticated clients get internet access, but no 'internal' acces=
s. All traffic is tagged at a low priority and routed right out to a NAT on=
the 'outside'. Authenticated clients route at normal priority to a=
n internal IP. Frankly, I don't care about making sure clients are secu=
re (via a NAC supplicant), I care about being able to identify who's zo=
mbie machine is attacking things, and 802.1x does this.</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div><div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-widt=
h:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
3px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">but I think it will gradually go awa=
y as more and more devices just adopt wifi for simplicity of user setup (if=
for no other practical reason)</span></blockquote>
<br>Apple tend to be the first ones to add new stuff and drop the old (flop=
pies, USB, etc.). They're still packing Ethernet on the back of the App=
le TV, and the experience of a Roku or Apple TV on wired is MUCH better. I =
don't think Ethernet is going away anytime soon. I actually think the q=
uality and speed of most wireless=A0connections=A0is worse now than it was =
five years ago. Everywhere I go, the 2.4Ghz spectrum is almost totally hose=
d by too many APs all stepping on each other, and lots of set-top and handh=
eld devices don't do 5Ghz.<br>
<br>- Marc Doughty<br>"If you aren't sure who is the give-way vess=
el, you are the give-way vessel."<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Paul Mor=
rison <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:paul.morrison@utoronto.ca" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">paul.morrison@utoronto.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">
Cost of cabling >>>>>> Cost of switching equipment for th=
e most part - I think the savings would be small.<br>
<br>
The question of what to do about multiple wired devices is a complicated on=
e - but I think it will gradually go away as more and more devices just ado=
pt wifi for simplicity of user setup (if for no other practical reason)<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Paul Morrison<br>
Computing Services Coordinator<br>
University College - University of Toronto<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Resnet Forum [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU">RESN=
ET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Andy Voelker<br>
Sent: November-01-12 5:08 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU">RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU</a=
><br>
</div><div class=3D"im HOEnZb">Subject: Re: [RESNET-L] Survey on ResNet Ser=
vices<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">I have heard some institution=
s installing the wiring for every room, but then only putting in minimal sw=
itching equipment. =A0Then they rely on user request to activate and patch =
that port to a real switch. =A0If you don't request it, you don't g=
et it. =A0I means fulfilling requests and possibly changing out equipment o=
nce in a while, possibly creating a mess. =A0However, it might save money o=
n the equipment at least.<br>
<br>
If you're doing this or considering it, why don't you chime in and =
tell us about the cost/benefit?<br>
<br>
-- Andy Voelker<br>
Manager of Student Computing in the Technology Commons WCU Staff Senator, U=
NC Staff Assembly Western Carolina University<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Resnet Forum [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU">RESN=
ET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Derek Buchanan<br>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:37 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU">RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: Survey on ResNet Services<br>
<br>
We have gotten that argument too here at Mary Baldwin. =A0The problem is wh=
en the timeline gets closer to the mid-semester and the student population =
all want their Facebook, WOW, and Xboxes. =A0Most find out pretty quickly t=
hat network cables are cheaper than the cost of their frustrations. =A0If t=
he person is merely checking e-mail or reading webpages for news, research,=
etc. then wireless speed is not that big a factor. =A0However our gamers, =
streaming video addicts, and the power Facebook users are not going for it =
and granted these are the more online intensive users. You have to understa=
nd that your home network with fewer than 10 people is vastly different tha=
n a wireless network shared with 600 on-campus students, and then you have =
the potential of Fac/Staff on that connection. =A0We treat wireless as a co=
nvenience technology, not an always on service like the wired network.<br>
<br>
Derek<br>
Mary Baldwin College<br>
<br>
P.S.<br>
Until recently, we were only on a 50MB connection that was upgraded to 100M=
B. =A0We have not dropped below 97% usage during school sessions.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Duffin, Gregory J <<a href=3D"mailto:DUF=
FIN001@gannon.edu">DUFFIN001@gannon.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> The problem with the wired connection is 98% of our students won't=
use it.<br>
> We had every room wired and the students still wanted wireless. Waste<=
br>
> of money to keep installing network jacks and switches when there not<=
br>
> being used. We even explained how wireless works and why it is slower<=
br>
> and they basically refused to use the wired. =A0Their statements are<b=
r>
> that they use wireless at home and it works great there.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
> -------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Greg Duffin<br>
><br>
> Systems Manager<br>
><br>
> Information Technology Services<br>
><br>
> Gannon University<br>
><br>
> 109 University Square<br>
><br>
> Erie, PA 16541<br>
><br>
> <a href=3D"tel:%28814%29%20871-7583" value=3D"+18148717583">(814) 871-=
7583</a><br>
<br>
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<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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