[27028] in resnet
Re: Question for Google Apps for Edu email users
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rachel Boutilier)
Thu Nov 10 17:01:43 2011
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Message-ID: <CACGRg4dF7oBKjePGivU2VELA98-Vwz3MKtBNHj=8+3J5S97x0A@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:56:03 -0600
Reply-To: Resnet Forum <RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu>
From: Rachel Boutilier <rboutili@macalester.edu>
To: RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu
In-Reply-To: <CAJj8AdHM+qSOD8vdrKWmohM90kR4qh1T=pW1EMVgRJPumOt-wA@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi Brian,
Macalester moved from Oracle Collaboration Suite to Google Apps in 2008.
This was before I started working here, but my colleague David Sisk sent
the following response to another Google Apps thread; I hope you find it
helpful.
Rachel
Rachel Boutilier '06
Client Services Consultant
Macalester College ITS
(651)696-6507
rboutili@macalester.edu
Macalester adopted Google Apps for all stakeholders - students, faculty and
> staff - in March 2008. Long story short, we had spent a year choosing a
> replacement for our then-current e-mail system, and Google was the clear
> winner. We received Senior Staff blessing in February, and had planned a
> methodical eight-month rollout when an electrical problem flatlined our old
> e-mail on March 2. Our eight-month rollout became a three-week one, at the
> end of which we were all on Google Apps. Best crisis we ever had.
>
> Our migration was atypical, in two senses. First, our old e-mail system
> was so bad that we really had no choice but to go to *something*,
> anything, better. Our nadir came in a student newspaper editorial that
> noted "I don't need to date other students: our e-mail goes down on me
> every night." Crude, but unfortunately not an exaggeration. (It was
> Oracle Collaboration Suite with Mozilla Thunderbird as a desktop client, in
> case you're wondering.) Second, once the evaluation and selection process
> was over, the crisis that killed OCS meant that we had to put Google in
> place immediately, much faster than we would have preferred.
>
> That said, I am glad we moved all stakeholders at one time. I really do
> not understand why some institutions find Google workable for their
> students, but not for their faculty and staff members. (I imagine it's
> because they have something that works OK, and that their employees have
> concerns about data privacy in the cloud.) We do not now, and never have,
> provided e-mail to alumni.
>
> Because of our crisis, the answer to your question #1 is Always
> Standardized. We gave our users an initial opt-in migration period of two
> weeks, in which they could volunteer to have their old mail migrated to
> Google Apps. We then advertised a deadline at which all accounts that had
> not migrated voluntarily would be migrated, whether or not people wanted
> them moved. We found that close to 75% of our community volunteered to
> migrate within the first week we made the option available, and only about
> 10% did not volunteer at all - thus had to be manually migrated at the
> "drop dead" date.
>
> #2: We initially enabled all Google Mail and Calendar options. Analytics
> came a year later, 2009. Skins are neither here nor there, for us. We
> recognized that we could not "control" when Google introduced new services,
> so we decided to swim with the current instead of against it. We told our
> users that some changes would come with advance notice, some without, and
> that this was simply the way things were with the new package. I should
> add that before Google, our shared calendar offering for employees was not
> good, and there was none at all for students. Google Calendar made friends
> fast in all these populations.
>
> #3: We never used Microsoft Exchange, so I cannot speak to this question.
>
> #4: Yes, we used saml from the beginning, and we have been very happy with
> it. Saml login permits us to put a customized Macalester face on logging
> into Google, including some useful help resources and our password change
> tools.
>
> In our discussions about migrating to Google Apps, the same few questions
> seem to come up again and again when other schools ask how we did it. The
> most crucial one is about privacy. There was some initial concern among
> faculty, and particularly our Senior Staff, about privacy of data in the
> cloud. I must say what saved us here was our President. While not a
> "techie," he made it clear to his cabinet that there is no expectation of
> privacy or confidentiality in e-mail, so discussing whether one system is
> less private or confidential than another is pointless. He also made it
> clear that having an e-mail system that worked was not a debatable issue.
> Having this kind of leadership at the top removes a lot of obstacles, let
> me tell you!
>
> We did not face much campus resistance based on faculty concerns over
> where the data would be stored, that is, in what countries. We did hear
> concerns from our faculty about ownership of data. Although it costs us
> nothing, we signed a four-year contract with Google, and they negotiated
> some aspects of that contract with us in response to our concerns. One
> point that is crystal-clear, and that reassured most of our stakeholders,
> is the contract reading essentially "Macalester's data belongs to
> Macalester College, not to Google."
>
> I should add that by the time we migrated, in March 2008, at least 70% of
> our students had already set up GMail accounts. Many were already
> forwarding all their Macalester e-mail to these accounts. Faculty can
> resist pressure from nearly everyone, but not from their students. When
> our students made clear that migrating to Google was a question of "why did
> you wait so long" rather than "why did you do this," a lot of potential
> faculty opposition simply did not materialize.
>
> Not to belabor the point, but our migration was a unique situation. If
> our e-mail system at the time had been stable, even if feature-poor, the
> decision to migrate would have been much harder. Still, after the
> migration we find that everyone on our campus seems to be happy with it.
> The fact that we no longer spend most of our time and effort fixing e-mail,
> or apologizing for trying to fix e-mail, means we can concentrate our
> attention on other projects that directly benefit our community. Migrating
> to Google really has marked a turn-around for our IT shop. It may not be
> the right path for all institutions, but it was unquestionably the right
> path for us.
>
> Those who may be interested in our evaluation and selection process can
> check it out here:
>
> http://www.macalester.edu/its/googleapps/background.html
>
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Shannon Peevey <speeves@stolaf.edu> wrote:
> Sorry, Tony! Didn't mean to dis you on my email...
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Tony Skalski <ajs@stolaf.edu> wrote:
>
>> To follow up on what Bud said, I would recommend you avoid any attempt
>> to try to use Outlook. We have looked at the Outlook connectors from a
>> few products and they all seemed to have mild to severe issues, and
>> couldn't be trusted, especially with C-class employees. We had a small
>> contingent of Outlook users, and they came around and liked the Google
>> interface.
>>
>> And, as the guy who did much of the meeting maker to google migration
>> here at St. Olaf, it wasn't painful, it was just a lot of
>> export-import tedium, as we migrated groups of users instead of
>> everyone at once, and we had to upgrade our version of meeting maker
>> each time so that we could access a new export feature that allowed us
>> to import to Google.
>>
>> There are so many additional services that Google brings to the table,
>> beyond email and calendaring, that it was an easy choice for us (we
>> did take a good look at Zimbra, and a few others).
>>
>> ajs
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Shannon Peevey <speeves@stolaf.edu>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Zimbra (we use VMware now)
>> >
>> > carleton.edu (with whom we collaborate) went with Zimbra ~2008. My
>> only real
>> > experience was with connecting Blackberry's for syncing, and the sync
>> tool
>> > was limited somehow. (I think that it didn't sync with the calendar at
>> the
>> > time). But, someone at Carleton could weigh in on their experiences.
>> Zimbra
>> > was our other alternative, and we felt that the Google product was the
>> most
>> > compelling.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Oracle's Collaboration Suite
>> >
>> > http://www.macalester.edu/ migrated from Oracle CS to Google Apps, so
>> they
>> > could weigh in there.
>> >
>> > We were a meeting maker campus, and the migration from meeting maker to
>> > Google Apps was painful. You can contact Craig Rice (cdr@stolaf.edu)
>> if you
>> > would like more information on how we did it. He handled those
>> migrations.
>> > Google Apps calendaring has had a limitation in that:
>> > 1. we would like student workers (as admin assistants) to be able to
>> make
>> > appointments for staff in some depts. (ie Health Center, Academic
>> Support
>> > Center, Center for Experiential Learning, etc), but you need to share
>> your
>> > calendar with the student worker, _meaning_ that the student has access
>> to
>> > the staff calendar, and meeting information at all times. The fear is
>> that
>> > the student will forget to logout of their Google Apps account at a
>> public
>> > kiosk, and the next students could sit down and view all of the student
>> > client names and appointment information.
>> > This has been a struggle, and so, the effected departments have
>> continued to
>> > use meeting maker.
>> > Does anyone have any news on Google Apps changes that may help with
>> this?
>> > thanks,
>> > --
>> > Shannon Eric Peevey
>> > Systems Programmer
>> > Information and Instructional Technologies
>> > St. Olaf College
>> > 1510 St. Olaf Avenue
>> > Northfield, MN 55057-1097 USA
>> > +1 507 786-3731, +1 507 786-3096 (fax)
>> > ___________________________________________________ You are subscribed
>> to
>> > the ResNet-L mailing list.
>> >
>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
>> > http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
>> > ___________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tony Skalski
>> Systems Administrator
>> ajs@stolaf.edu
>> 507-786-3227
>> St. Olaf College
>> Information and Instructional Technologies
>> 1510 St. Olaf Avenue
>> Northfield, MN 55057-1097
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> St. Olaf IIT staff will *never* ask you for your password via email.
>>
>> ___________________________________________________
>> You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>>
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives,
>> go to http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
>> ___________________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Shannon Eric Peevey
> Systems Programmer
> Information and Instructional Technologies
> St. Olaf College
> 1510 St. Olaf Avenue
> Northfield, MN 55057-1097 USA
> +1 507 786-3731, +1 507 786-3096 (fax)
> ___________________________________________________ You are subscribed to
> the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
> http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html___________________________________________________
>
___________________________________________________
You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives,
go to http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
___________________________________________________
--0015174be34ec025a704b168797a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian,<br><br>Macalester moved from Oracle Collaboration Suite to Google=
Apps in 2008.=A0 This was before I started working here, but my colleague =
David Sisk sent the following response to another Google Apps thread; I hop=
e you find it helpful.=A0 <br>
<br>Rachel<br><br clear=3D"all">Rachel Boutilier '06<br>Client Services=
Consultant<br>Macalester College ITS<br>(651)696-6507<br><a href=3D"mailto=
:rboutili@macalester.edu">rboutili@macalester.edu</a><br><br><br><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quote">
Macalester adopted Google Apps for all stakeholders -=20
students, faculty and staff - in March 2008.=A0 Long story short, we had=20
spent a year choosing a replacement for our then-current e-mail system,=20
and Google was the clear winner.=A0 We received Senior Staff blessing in=20
February, and had planned a methodical eight-month rollout when an=20
electrical problem flatlined our old e-mail on March 2.=A0 Our eight-month
rollout became a three-week one, at the end of which we were all on=20
Google Apps.=A0 Best crisis we ever had.=A0 <br>
<br>Our migration was atypical, in two senses.=A0 First, our old e-mail sys=
tem was so bad that we really had no choice but to go to <i>something</i>,
anything, better.=A0 Our nadir came in a student newspaper editorial that
noted "I don't need to date other students: our e-mail goes down =
on me=20
every night."=A0 Crude, but unfortunately not an exaggeration.=A0 (It =
was=20
Oracle Collaboration Suite with Mozilla Thunderbird as a desktop client,
in case you're wondering.)=A0 Second, once the evaluation and selectio=
n=20
process was over, the crisis that killed OCS meant that we had to put=20
Google in place immediately, much faster than we would have preferred.=A0 <=
br>
<br>That said, I am glad we moved all stakeholders at one time.=A0 I=20
really do not understand why some institutions find Google workable for=20
their students, but not for their faculty and staff members.=A0 (I imagine
it's because they have something that works OK, and that their=20
employees have concerns about data privacy in the cloud.)=A0 We do not=20
now, and never have, provided e-mail to alumni.=A0 <br>
<br>Because of our crisis, the answer to your question #1 is Always=20
Standardized.=A0 We gave our users an initial opt-in migration period of=20
two weeks, in which they could volunteer to have their old mail migrated
to Google Apps.=A0 We then advertised a deadline at which all accounts=20
that had not migrated voluntarily would be migrated, whether or not=20
people wanted them moved.=A0 We found that close to 75% of our community=20
volunteered to migrate within the first week we made the option=20
available, and only about 10% did not volunteer at all - thus had to be=20
manually migrated at the "drop dead" date.=A0 <br>
<br>#2: We initially enabled all Google Mail and Calendar options.=A0=20
Analytics came a year later, 2009.=A0 Skins are neither here nor there,=20
for us.=A0 We recognized that we could not "control" when Google=
=20
introduced new services, so we decided to swim with the current instead=20
of against it.=A0 We told our users that some changes would come with=20
advance notice, some without, and that this was simply the way things=20
were with the new package.=A0 I should add that before Google, our shared=
=20
calendar offering for employees was not good, and there was none at all=20
for students.=A0 Google Calendar made friends fast in all these=20
populations.<br>
<br>#3: We never used Microsoft Exchange, so I cannot speak to this questio=
n.=A0 <br><br>#4:
Yes, we used saml from the beginning, and we have been very happy with=20
it.=A0 Saml login permits us to put a customized Macalester face on=20
logging into Google, including some useful help resources and our=20
password change tools.=A0 <br>
<br>In our discussions about migrating to Google Apps, the same few=20
questions seem to come up again and again when other schools ask how we=20
did it.=A0 The most crucial one is about privacy.=A0 There was some initial=
=20
concern among faculty, and particularly our Senior Staff, about privacy=20
of data in the cloud.=A0 I must say what saved us here was our President.=
=A0
While not a "techie," he made it clear to his cabinet that there=
is no=20
expectation of privacy or confidentiality in e-mail, so discussing=20
whether one system is less private or confidential than another is=20
pointless.=A0 He also made it clear that having an e-mail system that=20
worked was not a debatable issue.=A0 Having this kind of leadership at the
top removes a lot of obstacles, let me tell you!<br>
<br>We did not face much campus resistance based on faculty concerns=20
over where the data would be stored, that is, in what countries.=A0 We did
hear concerns from our faculty about ownership of data.=A0 Although it=20
costs us nothing, we signed a four-year contract with Google, and they=20
negotiated some aspects of that contract with us in response to our=20
concerns.=A0 One point that is crystal-clear, and that reassured most of=20
our stakeholders, is the contract reading essentially "Macalester'=
s data
belongs to Macalester College, not to Google."=A0 <br>
<br>I should add that by the time we migrated, in March 2008, at least=20
70% of our students had already set up GMail accounts.=A0 Many were=20
already forwarding all their Macalester e-mail to these accounts.=A0=20
Faculty can resist pressure from nearly everyone, but not from their=20
students.=A0 When our students made clear that migrating to Google was a=20
question of "why did you wait so long" rather than "why did =
you do=20
this," a lot of potential faculty opposition simply did not materializ=
e.<br>
<br>Not to belabor the point, but our migration was a unique situation.=A0
If our e-mail system at the time had been stable, even if feature-poor,
the decision to migrate would have been much harder.=A0 Still, after the=
=20
migration we find that everyone on our campus seems to be happy with=20
it.=A0 The fact that we no longer spend most of our time and effort fixing
e-mail, or apologizing for trying to fix e-mail, means we can=20
concentrate our attention on other projects that directly benefit our=20
community.=A0 Migrating to Google really has marked a turn-around for our=
=20
IT shop.=A0 It may not be the right path for all institutions, but it was=
=20
unquestionably the right path for us.<br>
<br>Those who may be interested in our evaluation and selection process can=
check it out here:<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.macalester.edu/its/googlea=
pps/background.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.macalester.edu/its/google=
apps/background.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Shannon=
Peevey <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:speeves@stolaf.edu">speeves=
@stolaf.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Sorry, Tony! Didn't mean to dis you on my email...<div><div></div><div =
class=3D"h5"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:1=
0 PM, Tony Skalski <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:ajs@stolaf.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">ajs@stolaf.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">To follow up on what Bud said, I would recom=
mend you avoid any attempt<br>
to try to use Outlook. We have looked at the Outlook connectors from a<br>
few products and they all seemed to have mild to severe issues, and<br>
couldn't be trusted, especially with C-class employees. We had a small<=
br>
contingent of Outlook users, and they came around and liked the Google<br>
interface.<br>
<br>
And, as the guy who did much of the meeting maker to google migration<br>
here at St. Olaf, it wasn't painful, it was just a lot of<br>
export-import tedium, as we migrated groups of users instead of<br>
everyone at once, and we had to upgrade our version of meeting maker<br>
each time so that we could access a new export feature that allowed us<br>
to import to Google.<br>
<br>
There are so many additional services that Google brings to the table,<br>
beyond email and calendaring, that it was an easy choice for us (we<br>
did take a good look at Zimbra, and a few others).<br>
<br>
ajs<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Shannon Peevey <<a href=3D"mailto:spee=
ves@stolaf.edu" target=3D"_blank">speeves@stolaf.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Zimbra (we use VMware now)<br>
><br>
> <a href=3D"http://carleton.edu" target=3D"_blank">carleton.edu</a> (wi=
th whom we collaborate) went with Zimbra ~2008. My only real<br>
> experience was with connecting Blackberry's for syncing, and the s=
ync tool<br>
> was limited somehow. (I think that it didn't sync with the calenda=
r at the<br>
> time). But, someone at Carleton could weigh in on their experiences. Z=
imbra<br>
> was our other alternative, and we felt that the Google product was the=
most<br>
> compelling.<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Oracle's Collaboration Suite<br>
><br>
> <a href=3D"http://www.macalester.edu/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ma=
calester.edu/</a>=A0 migrated from Oracle CS to Google Apps, so they<br>
> could weigh in there.<br>
><br>
> We were a meeting maker campus, and the migration from meeting maker t=
o<br>
> Google Apps was painful. You can contact Craig Rice (<a href=3D"mailto=
:cdr@stolaf.edu" target=3D"_blank">cdr@stolaf.edu</a>) if you<br>
> would like more information on how we did it. He handled those migrati=
ons.<br>
> Google Apps calendaring has had a limitation in that:<br>
> 1. we would like student workers (as admin assistants) to be able to m=
ake<br>
> appointments for staff in some depts. (ie Health Center, Academic Supp=
ort<br>
> Center, Center for Experiential Learning, etc), but you need to share =
your<br>
> calendar with the student worker, _meaning_ that the student has acces=
s to<br>
> the staff calendar, and meeting information at all times. The fear is =
that<br>
> the student will forget to logout of their Google Apps account at a pu=
blic<br>
> kiosk, and the next students could sit down and view all of the studen=
t<br>
> client names and appointment information.<br>
> This has been a struggle, and so, the effected departments have contin=
ued to<br>
> use meeting maker.<br>
> Does anyone have any news on Google Apps changes that may help with th=
is?<br>
> thanks,<br>
> --<br>
> Shannon Eric Peevey<br>
> Systems Programmer<br>
> Information and Instructional Technologies<br>
> St. Olaf College<br>
> 1510 St. Olaf Avenue<br>
> Northfield, MN =A055057-1097 USA<br>
> <a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3731" value=3D"+15077863731" target=3D=
"_blank">+1 507 786-3731</a>, =A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3096" valu=
e=3D"+15077863096" target=3D"_blank">+1 507 786-3096</a> (fax)<br>
</div></div><div>> ___________________________________________________ Y=
ou are subscribed to<br>
> the ResNet-L mailing list.<br>
><br>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to<br>
> <a href=3D"http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html</a><br>
> ___________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div>Tony Skalski<br>
Systems Administrator<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ajs@stolaf.edu" target=3D"_blank">ajs@stolaf.edu</a><br>
<a href=3D"tel:507-786-3227" value=3D"+15077863227" target=3D"_blank">507-7=
86-3227</a><br>
St. Olaf College<br>
Information and Instructional Technologies<br>
<div>1510 St. Olaf Avenue<br>
Northfield, MN=A0 =A0 55057-1097<br>
</div>---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------<br>
St. Olaf IIT staff will *never* ask you for your password via email.<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
___________________________________________________<br>
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<br>
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___________________________________________________<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
Shannon Eric Peevey<br>Systems Programmer<br>Information and Instructional =
Technologies<br>St. Olaf College<br>1510 St. Olaf Avenue<br>Northfield, MN =
=A055057-1097 USA<br>
<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3731" value=3D"+15077863731" target=3D"_bla=
nk">+1 507 786-3731</a>, =A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3096" value=3D"=
+15077863096" target=3D"_blank">+1 507 786-3096</a> (fax)<br>
___________________________________________________
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