[27029] in resnet
Re: Question for Google Apps for Edu email users
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brian Gibson)
Fri Nov 11 11:42:04 2011
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Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:40:09 -0500
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From: Brian Gibson <gibson_brian@wheatoncollege.edu>
To: RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu
In-Reply-To: <CACGRg4dF7oBKjePGivU2VELA98-Vwz3MKtBNHj=8+3J5S97x0A@mail.gmail.com>
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wow, thank you /everyone/ for putting so much time and effort into
providing all this information for us :-)
On 11/10/2011 4:56 PM, Rachel Boutilier wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> Macalester moved from Oracle Collaboration Suite to Google Apps in
> 2008. This was before I started working here, but my colleague David
> Sisk sent the following response to another Google Apps thread; I hope
> you find it helpful.
>
> Rachel
>
> Rachel Boutilier '06
> Client Services Consultant
> Macalester College ITS
> (651)696-6507
> rboutili@macalester.edu <mailto:rboutili@macalester.edu>
>
>
> Macalester adopted Google Apps for all stakeholders - students,
> faculty and staff - in March 2008. Long story short, we had spent
> a year choosing a replacement for our then-current e-mail system,
> and Google was the clear winner. We received Senior Staff
> blessing in February, and had planned a methodical eight-month
> rollout when an electrical problem flatlined our old e-mail on
> March 2. Our eight-month rollout became a three-week one, at the
> end of which we were all on Google Apps. Best crisis we ever had.
>
> Our migration was atypical, in two senses. First, our old e-mail
> system was so bad that we really had no choice but to go to
> /something/, anything, better. Our nadir came in a student
> newspaper editorial that noted "I don't need to date other
> students: our e-mail goes down on me every night." Crude, but
> unfortunately not an exaggeration. (It was Oracle Collaboration
> Suite with Mozilla Thunderbird as a desktop client, in case you're
> wondering.) Second, once the evaluation and selection process was
> over, the crisis that killed OCS meant that we had to put Google
> in place immediately, much faster than we would have preferred.
>
> That said, I am glad we moved all stakeholders at one time. I
> really do not understand why some institutions find Google
> workable for their students, but not for their faculty and staff
> members. (I imagine it's because they have something that works
> OK, and that their employees have concerns about data privacy in
> the cloud.) We do not now, and never have, provided e-mail to
> alumni.
>
> Because of our crisis, the answer to your question #1 is Always
> Standardized. We gave our users an initial opt-in migration
> period of two weeks, in which they could volunteer to have their
> old mail migrated to Google Apps. We then advertised a deadline
> at which all accounts that had not migrated voluntarily would be
> migrated, whether or not people wanted them moved. We found that
> close to 75% of our community volunteered to migrate within the
> first week we made the option available, and only about 10% did
> not volunteer at all - thus had to be manually migrated at the
> "drop dead" date.
>
> #2: We initially enabled all Google Mail and Calendar options.
> Analytics came a year later, 2009. Skins are neither here nor
> there, for us. We recognized that we could not "control" when
> Google introduced new services, so we decided to swim with the
> current instead of against it. We told our users that some
> changes would come with advance notice, some without, and that
> this was simply the way things were with the new package. I
> should add that before Google, our shared calendar offering for
> employees was not good, and there was none at all for students.
> Google Calendar made friends fast in all these populations.
>
> #3: We never used Microsoft Exchange, so I cannot speak to this
> question.
>
> #4: Yes, we used saml from the beginning, and we have been very
> happy with it. Saml login permits us to put a customized
> Macalester face on logging into Google, including some useful help
> resources and our password change tools.
>
> In our discussions about migrating to Google Apps, the same few
> questions seem to come up again and again when other schools ask
> how we did it. The most crucial one is about privacy. There was
> some initial concern among faculty, and particularly our Senior
> Staff, about privacy of data in the cloud. I must say what saved
> us here was our President. While not a "techie," he made it clear
> to his cabinet that there is no expectation of privacy or
> confidentiality in e-mail, so discussing whether one system is
> less private or confidential than another is pointless. He also
> made it clear that having an e-mail system that worked was not a
> debatable issue. Having this kind of leadership at the top
> removes a lot of obstacles, let me tell you!
>
> We did not face much campus resistance based on faculty concerns
> over where the data would be stored, that is, in what countries.
> We did hear concerns from our faculty about ownership of data.
> Although it costs us nothing, we signed a four-year contract with
> Google, and they negotiated some aspects of that contract with us
> in response to our concerns. One point that is crystal-clear, and
> that reassured most of our stakeholders, is the contract reading
> essentially "Macalester's data belongs to Macalester College, not
> to Google."
>
> I should add that by the time we migrated, in March 2008, at least
> 70% of our students had already set up GMail accounts. Many were
> already forwarding all their Macalester e-mail to these accounts.
> Faculty can resist pressure from nearly everyone, but not from
> their students. When our students made clear that migrating to
> Google was a question of "why did you wait so long" rather than
> "why did you do this," a lot of potential faculty opposition
> simply did not materialize.
>
> Not to belabor the point, but our migration was a unique
> situation. If our e-mail system at the time had been stable, even
> if feature-poor, the decision to migrate would have been much
> harder. Still, after the migration we find that everyone on our
> campus seems to be happy with it. The fact that we no longer
> spend most of our time and effort fixing e-mail, or apologizing
> for trying to fix e-mail, means we can concentrate our attention
> on other projects that directly benefit our community. Migrating
> to Google really has marked a turn-around for our IT shop. It may
> not be the right path for all institutions, but it was
> unquestionably the right path for us.
>
> Those who may be interested in our evaluation and selection
> process can check it out here:
>
> http://www.macalester.edu/its/googleapps/background.html
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Shannon Peevey <speeves@stolaf.edu
> <mailto:speeves@stolaf.edu>> wrote:
>
> Sorry, Tony! Didn't mean to dis you on my email...
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Tony Skalski <ajs@stolaf.edu
> <mailto:ajs@stolaf.edu>> wrote:
>
> To follow up on what Bud said, I would recommend you avoid any
> attempt
> to try to use Outlook. We have looked at the Outlook
> connectors from a
> few products and they all seemed to have mild to severe
> issues, and
> couldn't be trusted, especially with C-class employees. We had
> a small
> contingent of Outlook users, and they came around and liked
> the Google
> interface.
>
> And, as the guy who did much of the meeting maker to google
> migration
> here at St. Olaf, it wasn't painful, it was just a lot of
> export-import tedium, as we migrated groups of users instead of
> everyone at once, and we had to upgrade our version of meeting
> maker
> each time so that we could access a new export feature that
> allowed us
> to import to Google.
>
> There are so many additional services that Google brings to
> the table,
> beyond email and calendaring, that it was an easy choice for
> us (we
> did take a good look at Zimbra, and a few others).
>
> ajs
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Shannon Peevey
> <speeves@stolaf.edu <mailto:speeves@stolaf.edu>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Zimbra (we use VMware now)
> >
> > carleton.edu <http://carleton.edu> (with whom we
> collaborate) went with Zimbra ~2008. My only real
> > experience was with connecting Blackberry's for syncing, and
> the sync tool
> > was limited somehow. (I think that it didn't sync with the
> calendar at the
> > time). But, someone at Carleton could weigh in on their
> experiences. Zimbra
> > was our other alternative, and we felt that the Google
> product was the most
> > compelling.
> >
> >>
> >> Oracle's Collaboration Suite
> >
> > http://www.macalester.edu/ migrated from Oracle CS to
> Google Apps, so they
> > could weigh in there.
> >
> > We were a meeting maker campus, and the migration from
> meeting maker to
> > Google Apps was painful. You can contact Craig Rice
> (cdr@stolaf.edu <mailto:cdr@stolaf.edu>) if you
> > would like more information on how we did it. He handled
> those migrations.
> > Google Apps calendaring has had a limitation in that:
> > 1. we would like student workers (as admin assistants) to be
> able to make
> > appointments for staff in some depts. (ie Health Center,
> Academic Support
> > Center, Center for Experiential Learning, etc), but you need
> to share your
> > calendar with the student worker, _meaning_ that the student
> has access to
> > the staff calendar, and meeting information at all times.
> The fear is that
> > the student will forget to logout of their Google Apps
> account at a public
> > kiosk, and the next students could sit down and view all of
> the student
> > client names and appointment information.
> > This has been a struggle, and so, the effected departments
> have continued to
> > use meeting maker.
> > Does anyone have any news on Google Apps changes that may
> help with this?
> > thanks,
> > --
> > Shannon Eric Peevey
> > Systems Programmer
> > Information and Instructional Technologies
> > St. Olaf College
> > 1510 St. Olaf Avenue
> > Northfield, MN 55057-1097 USA
> > +1 507 786-3731 <tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3731>, +1 507 786-3096
> <tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3096> (fax)
> > ___________________________________________________ You are
> subscribed to
> > the ResNet-L mailing list.
> >
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
> > http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> > ___________________________________________________
>
>
>
> --
> Tony Skalski
> Systems Administrator
> ajs@stolaf.edu <mailto:ajs@stolaf.edu>
> 507-786-3227 <tel:507-786-3227>
> St. Olaf College
> Information and Instructional Technologies
> 1510 St. Olaf Avenue
> Northfield, MN 55057-1097
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> St. Olaf IIT staff will *never* ask you for your password via
> email.
>
> ___________________________________________________
> You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives,
> go to http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> ___________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> --
> Shannon Eric Peevey
> Systems Programmer
> Information and Instructional Technologies
> St. Olaf College
> 1510 St. Olaf Avenue
> Northfield, MN 55057-1097 USA
> +1 507 786-3731 <tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3731>, +1 507 786-3096
> <tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3096> (fax)
> ___________________________________________________ You are
> subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
> http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> ___________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________ You are subscribed
> to the ResNet-L mailing list.
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to
> http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html
> ___________________________________________________
>
--
___________________________________________________
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wow, thank you <i>everyone</i> for putting so much time and effort
into providing all this information for us :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/10/2011 4:56 PM, Rachel Boutilier wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACGRg4dF7oBKjePGivU2VELA98-Vwz3MKtBNHj=8+3J5S97x0A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Hi Brian,<br>
<br>
Macalester moved from Oracle Collaboration Suite to Google Apps in
2008. This was before I started working here, but my colleague
David Sisk sent the following response to another Google Apps
thread; I hope you find it helpful. <br>
<br>
Rachel<br>
<br clear="all">
Rachel Boutilier '06<br>
Client Services Consultant<br>
Macalester College ITS<br>
(651)696-6507<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rboutili@macalester.edu">rboutili@macalester.edu</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"
class="gmail_quote">
Macalester adopted Google Apps for all stakeholders - students,
faculty and staff - in March 2008. Long story short, we had
spent a year choosing a replacement for our then-current e-mail
system, and Google was the clear winner. We received Senior
Staff blessing in February, and had planned a methodical
eight-month rollout when an electrical problem flatlined our old
e-mail on March 2. Our eight-month rollout became a three-week
one, at the end of which we were all on Google Apps. Best
crisis we ever had. <br>
<br>
Our migration was atypical, in two senses. First, our old
e-mail system was so bad that we really had no choice but to go
to <i>something</i>, anything, better. Our nadir came in a
student newspaper editorial that noted "I don't need to date
other students: our e-mail goes down on me every night." Crude,
but unfortunately not an exaggeration. (It was Oracle
Collaboration Suite with Mozilla Thunderbird as a desktop
client, in case you're wondering.) Second, once the evaluation
and selection process was over, the crisis that killed OCS meant
that we had to put Google in place immediately, much faster than
we would have preferred. <br>
<br>
That said, I am glad we moved all stakeholders at one time. I
really do not understand why some institutions find Google
workable for their students, but not for their faculty and staff
members. (I imagine it's because they have something that works
OK, and that their employees have concerns about data privacy in
the cloud.) We do not now, and never have, provided e-mail to
alumni. <br>
<br>
Because of our crisis, the answer to your question #1 is Always
Standardized. We gave our users an initial opt-in migration
period of two weeks, in which they could volunteer to have their
old mail migrated to Google Apps. We then advertised a deadline
at which all accounts that had not migrated voluntarily would be
migrated, whether or not people wanted them moved. We found
that close to 75% of our community volunteered to migrate within
the first week we made the option available, and only about 10%
did not volunteer at all - thus had to be manually migrated at
the "drop dead" date. <br>
<br>
#2: We initially enabled all Google Mail and Calendar options.
Analytics came a year later, 2009. Skins are neither here nor
there, for us. We recognized that we could not "control" when
Google introduced new services, so we decided to swim with the
current instead of against it. We told our users that some
changes would come with advance notice, some without, and that
this was simply the way things were with the new package. I
should add that before Google, our shared calendar offering for
employees was not good, and there was none at all for students.
Google Calendar made friends fast in all these populations.<br>
<br>
#3: We never used Microsoft Exchange, so I cannot speak to this
question. <br>
<br>
#4: Yes, we used saml from the beginning, and we have been very
happy with it. Saml login permits us to put a customized
Macalester face on logging into Google, including some useful
help resources and our password change tools. <br>
<br>
In our discussions about migrating to Google Apps, the same few
questions seem to come up again and again when other schools ask
how we did it. The most crucial one is about privacy. There
was some initial concern among faculty, and particularly our
Senior Staff, about privacy of data in the cloud. I must say
what saved us here was our President. While not a "techie," he
made it clear to his cabinet that there is no expectation of
privacy or confidentiality in e-mail, so discussing whether one
system is less private or confidential than another is
pointless. He also made it clear that having an e-mail system
that worked was not a debatable issue. Having this kind of
leadership at the top removes a lot of obstacles, let me tell
you!<br>
<br>
We did not face much campus resistance based on faculty concerns
over where the data would be stored, that is, in what
countries. We did hear concerns from our faculty about
ownership of data. Although it costs us nothing, we signed a
four-year contract with Google, and they negotiated some aspects
of that contract with us in response to our concerns. One point
that is crystal-clear, and that reassured most of our
stakeholders, is the contract reading essentially "Macalester's
data belongs to Macalester College, not to Google." <br>
<br>
I should add that by the time we migrated, in March 2008, at
least 70% of our students had already set up GMail accounts.
Many were already forwarding all their Macalester e-mail to
these accounts. Faculty can resist pressure from nearly
everyone, but not from their students. When our students made
clear that migrating to Google was a question of "why did you
wait so long" rather than "why did you do this," a lot of
potential faculty opposition simply did not materialize.<br>
<br>
Not to belabor the point, but our migration was a unique
situation. If our e-mail system at the time had been stable,
even if feature-poor, the decision to migrate would have been
much harder. Still, after the migration we find that everyone
on our campus seems to be happy with it. The fact that we no
longer spend most of our time and effort fixing e-mail, or
apologizing for trying to fix e-mail, means we can concentrate
our attention on other projects that directly benefit our
community. Migrating to Google really has marked a turn-around
for our IT shop. It may not be the right path for all
institutions, but it was unquestionably the right path for us.<br>
<br>
Those who may be interested in our evaluation and selection
process can check it out here:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.macalester.edu/its/googleapps/background.html"
target="_blank">http://www.macalester.edu/its/googleapps/background.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Shannon
Peevey <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:speeves@stolaf.edu">speeves@stolaf.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Sorry, Tony! Didn't mean to dis you on my email...
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:10 PM,
Tony Skalski <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@stolaf.edu"
target="_blank">ajs@stolaf.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">To
follow up on what Bud said, I would recommend you
avoid any attempt<br>
to try to use Outlook. We have looked at the Outlook
connectors from a<br>
few products and they all seemed to have mild to
severe issues, and<br>
couldn't be trusted, especially with C-class
employees. We had a small<br>
contingent of Outlook users, and they came around and
liked the Google<br>
interface.<br>
<br>
And, as the guy who did much of the meeting maker to
google migration<br>
here at St. Olaf, it wasn't painful, it was just a lot
of<br>
export-import tedium, as we migrated groups of users
instead of<br>
everyone at once, and we had to upgrade our version of
meeting maker<br>
each time so that we could access a new export feature
that allowed us<br>
to import to Google.<br>
<br>
There are so many additional services that Google
brings to the table,<br>
beyond email and calendaring, that it was an easy
choice for us (we<br>
did take a good look at Zimbra, and a few others).<br>
<br>
ajs<br>
<div>
<div><br>
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Shannon Peevey
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:speeves@stolaf.edu" target="_blank">speeves@stolaf.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Zimbra (we use VMware now)<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://carleton.edu" target="_blank">carleton.edu</a>
(with whom we collaborate) went with Zimbra ~2008.
My only real<br>
> experience was with connecting Blackberry's
for syncing, and the sync tool<br>
> was limited somehow. (I think that it didn't
sync with the calendar at the<br>
> time). But, someone at Carleton could weigh
in on their experiences. Zimbra<br>
> was our other alternative, and we felt that
the Google product was the most<br>
> compelling.<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Oracle's Collaboration Suite<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.macalester.edu/"
target="_blank">http://www.macalester.edu/</a>
migrated from Oracle CS to Google Apps, so they<br>
> could weigh in there.<br>
><br>
> We were a meeting maker campus, and the
migration from meeting maker to<br>
> Google Apps was painful. You can contact
Craig Rice (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cdr@stolaf.edu" target="_blank">cdr@stolaf.edu</a>)
if you<br>
> would like more information on how we did it.
He handled those migrations.<br>
> Google Apps calendaring has had a limitation
in that:<br>
> 1. we would like student workers (as admin
assistants) to be able to make<br>
> appointments for staff in some depts. (ie
Health Center, Academic Support<br>
> Center, Center for Experiential Learning,
etc), but you need to share your<br>
> calendar with the student worker, _meaning_
that the student has access to<br>
> the staff calendar, and meeting information
at all times. The fear is that<br>
> the student will forget to logout of their
Google Apps account at a public<br>
> kiosk, and the next students could sit down
and view all of the student<br>
> client names and appointment information.<br>
> This has been a struggle, and so, the
effected departments have continued to<br>
> use meeting maker.<br>
> Does anyone have any news on Google Apps
changes that may help with this?<br>
> thanks,<br>
> --<br>
> Shannon Eric Peevey<br>
> Systems Programmer<br>
> Information and Instructional Technologies<br>
> St. Olaf College<br>
> 1510 St. Olaf Avenue<br>
> Northfield, MN 55057-1097 USA<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3731"
value="+15077863731" target="_blank">+1 507
786-3731</a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3096"
value="+15077863096" target="_blank">+1 507
786-3096</a> (fax)<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>>
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You are subscribed to<br>
> the ResNet-L mailing list.<br>
><br>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the
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> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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>
___________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div>
Tony Skalski<br>
Systems Administrator<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ajs@stolaf.edu"
target="_blank">ajs@stolaf.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:507-786-3227"
value="+15077863227" target="_blank">507-786-3227</a><br>
St. Olaf College<br>
Information and Instructional Technologies<br>
<div>1510 St. Olaf Avenue<br>
Northfield, MN 55057-1097<br>
</div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
St. Olaf IIT staff will *never* ask you for your
password via email.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
___________________________________________________<br>
You are subscribed to the ResNet-L mailing list.<br>
<br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives,<br>
go to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">http://LISTSERV.ND.EDU/archives/resnet-l.html</a><br>
___________________________________________________<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
Shannon Eric Peevey<br>
Systems Programmer<br>
Information and Instructional Technologies<br>
St. Olaf College<br>
1510 St. Olaf Avenue<br>
Northfield, MN 55057-1097 USA<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3731"
value="+15077863731" target="_blank">+1 507 786-3731</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20507%20786-3096" value="+15077863096"
target="_blank">+1 507 786-3096</a> (fax)<br>
___________________________________________________
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