[172] in UA Senate
Re: 41UAS2.3: Bill to Authorize the Treasurer to Reallocate Money to
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Daniel Hawkins)
Tue Oct 20 02:28:05 2009
Reply-To: hwkns@MIT.EDU
In-Reply-To: <4ADD54DD.7010903@mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:27:32 -0400
From: Daniel Hawkins <hwkns@MIT.EDU>
To: Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu>
Cc: Ted Hilk <thilk@mit.edu>, UA Senate <ua-senate@mit.edu>
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To clarify some concerns, the word "reallocate" means "to assign or allot t=
o
a different purpose or person from the one originally intended." To some
people, that might mean changing the original budget. You've patched this
hole already, by making the original budget accessible, but I wanted to
explain why people were getting confused.
-hwkns
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu> wrote:
> Ted Hilk wrote:
>
>> Agreed -- when planning budgets in subsequent years, it is important to
>> know
>> what the original line item was, in addition to the reallocated one.
>> Otherwise, the bill risks deceiving later Senate members.
>>
>
> I was never planning to change the original budget.
>
>>
>> The bill should include specific language stipulating that the original
>> line
>> item remain on record in the budget for that year. If the bill's purpos=
e
>> is
>> to simply recycle leftover money (which I wholly support), rather than
>> forcing committees to progressively decrease their spending (which I
>> emphatically do not, at least not on such a broad level),
>>
>
> There was never an intent to do reduce committee budgets on a
> term-over-term basis. How did you conclude I was trying to do that? And w=
hy
> didn't you bring up that concern today?
>
> I could see a future treasurer using spending information to decide, for
> example, how much money a committee needed to feed $n$ people for $m$
> meetings, but I can't imagine it being used to, say, monotonically decrea=
se
> Athletics Weekend's funding by repeated claims of "but you did it for les=
s
> last year".
>
> Also, the UA, so far as I can tell, generally puts very little stock in
> precedent in the budgeting process...
>
> > then I see no
>
>> reason why such language should not be included. Why is it not?
>>
>
> Because good language doesn't put itself in bills, and I don't believe
> anybody proposed any such language. Since it seems reasonable, I'm adding
> something:
>
> \that{that the original budget must remain available for the
> historical record}
>
> Let me know if you have language that you'd prefer.
>
>
>
>
> I'm maintaining various revisions in a Git repo now --- you can get the
> latest version of the bill as I'd like to see it amended to at
> http://web.mit.edu/ua/officers/treasurer/Public/FY10/2009-10-moving-money=
/moving-money.pdf
> .
>
> I guess at this point the bill is technically no longer mine, so I hope
> that next week Paul will permit me to propose a series of amendments in
> rapid succession.
>
>
>
>> Ted
>>
>> P.S. Meant to hit 'reply to all' -- sorry if Maggie got two copies of
>> this.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Maggie Delano <maggied@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> To address Alex's second point: I think it would be useful to see how
>>> much
>>> money a committee actually spent *along with* what they were allocated.=
I
>>> don't think this will explicitly set a precedent for lower budgets, as =
we
>>> would still like to overallocate slightly on line items.
>>>
>>> -Maggie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Alexandra Jordan <amjordan@mit.edu
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>> Response to Paul:
>>>>
>>>> I agree that committees could find that a project can't be implemented=
,
>>>> or
>>>> that they no longer want to implement it, but since Senate budgeted
>>>> money
>>>> for said project, Senate should be informed and able to approve the
>>>> reallocation of these funds. I don't want to take the right of Committ=
ee
>>>> Chairs to use their discretion on projects, but rather I don't want to
>>>> formally exclude Senate from deciding to change project funding.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not worried about the Treasurer unilaterally changing committee
>>>> budgets mid-semester. I'm worried about putting a piece of legislation
>>>> in
>>>> place that practically guarantees that next year's chairs will have a
>>>> precedent of lower budgets and will thus have to work much harder to a=
sk
>>>> for
>>>> increased allocations. As I said before, Senate usually relies on
>>>> precedent
>>>> when approving allocations, so this would almost ensure a more difficu=
lt
>>>> budget approval for many committees.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Paul Youchak wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am responding to both Alex and Ted here...
>>>>
>>>>> Committees may fund for a project and later find out is is either not
>>>>> possible or not desirable. Committees may think a project is a good
>>>>> idea
>>>>> but they will not really know, for whatever reason, that their idea
>>>>> should
>>>>> be implemented until they have tried. Committee's can make mistakes
>>>>> about
>>>>> what they want to do in the upcoming semester, especially since they
>>>>> are
>>>>> budgeted for so far in advance. If a committee cannot fulfill their
>>>>> obligation for the project then it is acceptable to remove the line.
>>>>> In my
>>>>> mind there are not separate issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having the reallocation of money be reversible makes no sense. The
>>>>> committee leader should not release the money unless they are 100% su=
re
>>>>> they
>>>>> wont need it. Secondly, if they find they have changed their mind it
>>>>> is
>>>>> always possible to ask for more money from discretionary. I don't
>>>>> think
>>>>> this will ever happen, so its not a very strong objection to the bill=
.
>>>>>
>>>>> The treasurer does by no means have the right to reduce a committees
>>>>> budget mid semester. If you are afraid of the committee being
>>>>> overruled by
>>>>> the committee chair then we can say the committee must unanimously
>>>>> (2/3,
>>>>> whatever) approve of the reallocation of funds. I however, think you
>>>>> are
>>>>> more concerned with the power in the treasurer. Remember, the Senate
>>>>> still
>>>>> has ultimate control because we do now have the right reverse his
>>>>> decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, this bill will only last for this year unless we decide to rene=
w
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ted Hilk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That the Treasurer may reallocate funds from one part of the UA
>>>>>> budget to the pool of funds that
>>>>>> the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the next
>>>>>> funding period;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding this pool: if the applicable committee chair later decides
>>>>>> that this decision was made in error, is there any way for it to be
>>>>>> reversed? Given that the money is allocated to a "pool of funds"
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than directly to the groups (hence implying some time delay before t=
he
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> is actually out of UA's control), shouldn't such reversal be an
>>>>>> option? If
>>>>>> not, why not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That such reallocations must be approved by the committee chair or
>>>>>> other officer in charge of the
>>>>>> budget area losing said funds;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would it be possible to clarify, in the text of the bill, which
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> positions are allowed to do this for which specific budget areas? I
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>> that the existing wording is a bit vague, given the powers involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That the Senate, Finance Board, and [a]affected Chair must be
>>>>>> informed of each such reallocation;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a reason why this line does not say "by the next meeting of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Senate"? While understanding the importance of delegation, I believ=
e
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> timely information is necessary to allow for review of the decisions=
.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I would like to note that I'm not by any means opposed to t=
he
>>>>>> principle of this bill. I agree that leftover money from our
>>>>>> operations
>>>>>> should go to student groups. I just want to make sure that Senate
>>>>>> exercises
>>>>>> caution in doing so, and more time for discussion was necessary to
>>>>>> meet this
>>>>>> aim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Ted Hilk
>>>>>> EC Senator
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>> adehnert@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we postponed this a week...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have questions: Please ask them explicitly. Otherwise, no
>>>>>> guarantee that you'll get an answer... I'm not psychic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll probably put together some more information shortly, but I
>>>>>> encourage some discussion to happen here besides that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex Dehnert wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wrote a bill which is available at
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/moving-money.pdf.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bill authorizes the treasurer to:
>>>>>> * reallocate funds from a committee to the pool of funds that
>>>>>> the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the
>>>>>> next funding period; and
>>>>>> * Requires that such reallocations be approved by the
>>>>>> committee chair losing said funds; and
>>>>>> * That the Senate, Finance Board, and affected Chair must be
>>>>>> informed of each such reallocation; and
>>>>>> * That such authorization shall expire at the end of the
>>>>>> 2009=962010 fiscal year unless renewed by Senate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. It would be
>>>>>> awesome if we can get most questions out *before* Senate, so
>>>>>> that Senate can be short without being much less effective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________
>>>> Alexandra Jordan
>>>>
>>>> MIT 2011
>>>> Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Science
>>>> Political Science
>>>>
>>>> amjordan@mit.edu
>>>> 916.813.7740
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
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To clarify some concerns, the word "reallocate" means "to as=
sign or allot to a different purpose or person from the one originally inte=
nded."=A0 To some people, that might mean changing the original budget=
.=A0 You've patched this hole already, by making the original budget ac=
cessible, but I wanted to explain why people were getting confused.<br>
<br>-hwkns<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:12 A=
M, Alex Dehnert <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:adehnert@mit.edu">a=
dehnert@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">Ted Hilk wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Agreed -- when planning budgets in subsequent years, it is important to kno=
w<br>
what the original line item was, in addition to the reallocated one.<br>
Otherwise, the bill risks deceiving later Senate members.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I was never planning to change the original budget.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
The bill should include specific language stipulating that the original lin=
e<br>
item remain on record in the budget for that year. =A0If the bill's pur=
pose is<br>
to simply recycle leftover money (which I wholly support), rather than<br>
forcing committees to progressively decrease their spending (which I<br>
emphatically do not, at least not on such a broad level),<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
There was never an intent to do reduce committee budgets on a term-over-ter=
m basis. How did you conclude I was trying to do that? And why didn't y=
ou bring up that concern today?<br>
<br>
I could see a future treasurer using spending information to decide, for ex=
ample, how much money a committee needed to feed $n$ people for $m$ meeting=
s, but I can't imagine it being used to, say, monotonically decrease At=
hletics Weekend's funding by repeated claims of "but you did it fo=
r less last year".<br>
<br>
Also, the UA, so far as I can tell, generally puts very little stock in pre=
cedent in the budgeting process...<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
> then I see no<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
reason why such language should not be included. =A0Why is it not?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Because good language doesn't put itself in bills, and I don't beli=
eve anybody proposed any such language. Since it seems reasonable, I'm =
adding something:<br>
<br>
\that{that the original budget must remain available for the<br>
historical record}<br>
<br>
Let me know if you have language that you'd prefer.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I'm maintaining various revisions in a Git repo now --- you can get the=
latest version of the bill as I'd like to see it amended to at <a href=
=3D"http://web.mit.edu/ua/officers/treasurer/Public/FY10/2009-10-moving-mon=
ey/moving-money.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://web.mit.edu/ua/officers/treas=
urer/Public/FY10/2009-10-moving-money/moving-money.pdf</a>.<br>
<br>
I guess at this point the bill is technically no longer mine, so I hope tha=
t next week Paul will permit me to propose a series of amendments in rapid =
succession.<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Ted<br>
<br>
P.S. =A0Meant to hit 'reply to all' -- sorry if Maggie got two copi=
es of this.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Maggie Delano <<a href=3D"mailto:maggi=
ed@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">maggied@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
To address Alex's second point: I think it would be useful to see how m=
uch<br>
money a committee actually spent *along with* what they were allocated. I<b=
r>
don't think this will explicitly set a precedent for lower budgets, as =
we<br>
would still like to overallocate slightly on line items.<br>
<br>
-Maggie<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Alexandra Jordan <<a href=3D"mailto:am=
jordan@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">amjordan@mit.edu</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Response to Paul:<br>
<br>
I agree that committees could find that a project can't be implemented,=
or<br>
that they no longer want to implement it, but since Senate budgeted money<b=
r>
for said project, Senate should be informed and able to approve the<br>
reallocation of these funds. I don't want to take the right of Committe=
e<br>
Chairs to use their discretion on projects, but rather I don't want to<=
br>
formally exclude Senate from deciding to change project funding.<br>
<br>
I'm not worried about the Treasurer unilaterally changing committee<br>
budgets mid-semester. I'm worried about putting a piece of legislation =
in<br>
place that practically guarantees that next year's chairs will have a<b=
r>
precedent of lower budgets and will thus have to work much harder to ask fo=
r<br>
increased allocations. =A0As I said before, Senate usually relies on preced=
ent<br>
when approving allocations, so this would almost ensure a more difficult<br=
>
budget approval for many committees.<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Paul Youchak wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0I am responding to both Alex and Ted here...<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Committees may fund for a project and later find out is is either not<br>
possible or not desirable. =A0Committees may think a project is a good idea=
<br>
but they will not really know, for whatever reason, that their idea should<=
br>
be implemented until they have tried. =A0Committee's can make mistakes =
about<br>
what they want to do in the upcoming semester, especially since they are<br=
>
budgeted for so far in advance. =A0If a committee cannot fulfill their<br>
obligation for the project then it is acceptable to remove the line. =A0In =
my<br>
mind there are not separate issues.<br>
<br>
Having the reallocation of money be reversible makes no sense. =A0The<br>
committee leader should not release the money unless they are 100% sure the=
y<br>
wont need it. =A0Secondly, if they find they have changed their mind it is<=
br>
always possible to ask for more money from discretionary. =A0I don't th=
ink<br>
this will ever happen, so its not a very strong objection to the bill.<br>
<br>
The treasurer does by no means have the right to reduce a committees<br>
budget mid semester. =A0If you are afraid of the committee being overruled =
by<br>
the committee chair then we can say the committee must unanimously (2/3,<br=
>
whatever) approve of the reallocation of funds. =A0I however, think you are=
<br>
more concerned with the power in the treasurer. =A0Remember, the Senate sti=
ll<br>
has ultimate control because we do now have the right reverse his decision.=
<br>
<br>
Note, this bill will only last for this year unless we decide to renew<br>
it.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ted Hilk wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
=A0That the Treasurer may reallocate funds from one part of the UA<br>
=A0budget to the pool of funds that<br>
=A0the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the next<br>
=A0funding period;<br>
<br>
<br>
Regarding this pool: if the applicable committee chair later decides<br>
that this decision was made in error, is there any way for it to be<br>
reversed? =A0Given that the money is allocated to a "pool of funds&quo=
t; rather<br>
than directly to the groups (hence implying some time delay before the mone=
y<br>
is actually out of UA's control), shouldn't such reversal be an opt=
ion? =A0If<br>
not, why not?<br>
<br>
=A0That such reallocations must be approved by the committee chair or<br>
=A0other officer in charge of the<br>
=A0budget area losing said funds;<br>
<br>
<br>
Would it be possible to clarify, in the text of the bill, which specific<br=
>
positions are allowed to do this for which specific budget areas? =A0I feel=
<br>
that the existing wording is a bit vague, given the powers involved.<br>
<br>
=A0That the Senate, Finance Board, and [a]affected Chair must be<br>
=A0informed of each such reallocation;<br>
<br>
<br>
Is there a reason why this line does not say "by the next meeting of t=
he<br>
Senate"? =A0While understanding the importance of delegation, I believ=
e that<br>
timely information is necessary to allow for review of the decisions.<br>
<br>
Finally, I would like to note that I'm not by any means opposed to the<=
br>
principle of this bill. =A0I agree that leftover money from our operations<=
br>
should go to student groups. =A0I just want to make sure that Senate exerci=
ses<br>
caution in doing so, and more time for discussion was necessary to meet thi=
s<br>
aim.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Ted Hilk<br>
EC Senator<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Alex Dehnert <<a href=3D"mailto:adehner=
t@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">adehnert@mit.edu</a><mailto:<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:adehnert@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">adehnert@mit.edu</a>&=
gt;> wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0Since we postponed this a week...<br>
<br>
=A0If you have questions: Please ask them explicitly. Otherwise, no<br>
=A0guarantee that you'll get an answer... I'm not psychic.<br>
<br>
=A0I'll probably put together some more information shortly, but I<br>
=A0encourage some discussion to happen here besides that.<br>
<br>
=A0~~Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0Alex Dehnert wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0I wrote a bill which is available at<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/moving-money.p=
df" target=3D"_blank">http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/mov=
ing-money.pdf</a>.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0The bill authorizes the treasurer to:<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* reallocate funds from a committee to the pool of funds that<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 =A0the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0next funding period; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* Requires that such reallocations be approved by the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0committee chair losing said funds; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* That the Senate, Finance Board, and affected Chair must be<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0informed of each such reallocation; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* That such authorization shall expire at the end of the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A02009=962010 fiscal year unless renewed by Senate.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. It would b=
e<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0awesome if we can get most questions out *before* Senate, so<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0that Senate can be short without being much less effective.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0~~Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
__________________________________<br>
Alexandra Jordan<br>
<br>
MIT 2011<br>
Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Science<br>
Political Science<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:amjordan@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">amjordan@mit.edu</a><=
br>
916.813.7740<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
--000e0ce00996159c19047657f557--
