[160714] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: Muni fiber: L1 or L2?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Stephen Sprunk)
Mon Feb 11 19:15:04 2013
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:14:52 -0600
From: Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
To: Scott Helms <khelms@zcorum.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAMrdfRxL9db3w0aEWDr7FzfYUT39qEuHMaL-vzjUHgpbgsQFAA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Errors-To: nanog-bounces+nanog.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@nanog.org
This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.
--------------ms000300000601050808040105
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 11-Feb-13 16:37, Scott Helms wrote:
>
> I disagree; he is obsessing over how to reduce the amount of
> fiber, which is a tiny fraction of the total cost, and that leads
> him to invite all sorts of L2 problems into the picture that, for
> a purely L1 provider, simply would not apply.
>
>
> Not at all, I've obsessing about all of the costs. IMO if you can't
> pay for the initial build quickly and run it efficiently then your
> chances of long term success are very low.
The fiber plant would presumably be paid for with 30-year bonds, same as
any other municipal infrastructure (eg. water and sewer lines--the real
"pipes"), for which interest rates are currently running around the rate
of inflation. There is no need to pay them off quickly. Heck, some
forward-thinking folks might even see the fiber as paying for itself
through increased property values (and therefore tax revenues) and not
demand that it pay back its bonds through access fees at all, just the
(minimal) operating costs.
L2 and above, though, is another story due to the (relatively) short
depreciation cycle and higher operational costs--yet another reason they
should be separated.
> L1, at scale, sharing is simply impractical for all of its
> philosophical benefits for more municipal network operators. That's
> not to say there aren't exceptions, but I can point to lots of
> successful muni operators who are the layer 3 provider. I can point
> to several that offer open access at layer 2 successfully but I don't
> know of any doing L1 sharing that would call it a success. Do you
> know of some that do?
There have been several examples cited in this thread, but I don't know
how many (if any) meet both your criteria, i.e. muni _and_ open at L1.
> We have a philosophical disagreement here. I fully support public
> ownership of public ownership of "natural" monopolies, and the
> fiber plant itself (L1) certainly qualifies.
>
> However, running L2 (or L3) over that fiber is _not_ a natural
> monopoly, so I do _not_ support public ownership. At most, I
> could stomach a "provider of last resort" to guarantee resident
> access to useful services, in the IMHO unlikely event that only
> one (or zero) private players showed up, or a compelling need to
> provide some residents (eg. the elderly or indigent, schools,
> other public agencies, etc.) with below-cost services.
>
>
> Too many places have either no or very poor services being provided
> from the market for me to take this stance.
=2E.. hence my reluctant acceptance of having a publicly-owned "provider
of last resort" for L2 and L3 services. I would hate to see all that
fiber go unused just because no private players showed up to the party.=20
OTOH, it is still fundamentally different from L1.
(Note that I also endorse this same model in urban and suburban markets,
where there is no shortage of folks wanting to offer service--but few
players with access to enough capital to put the necessary fiber in
place, none of whom are interested in open access.)
> I think the ILECs got this part right: provide a passive NIU on
> the outside wall, which forms a natural demarc that the fiber
> owner can test to. If an L2 operator has active equipment, put it
> inside--and it would be part of the customer-purchased (or
> -leased) equipment when they turn up service.
>
>
> What ILEC is offering L1 fiber access at all?
Think copper.
S
--=20
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
--------------ms000300000601050808040105
Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature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--------------ms000300000601050808040105--
