[24358] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] Toast Song: Majority versus Minority
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mnathan@ATT.NET)
Fri Jun 11 22:49:40 2004
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:47:34 +0000
Reply-To: mnathan@ATT.NET
From: mnathan@ATT.NET
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
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Many of the individuals on this list are Alumni Brothers. We as alumni brothers can discuss the toast song issue all day and night on this list. Please remember that it is the active brotherhood at a national convention not alumni brothers, who are going to make any changes to the documents of this Fraternity. Over the last 20 years, that this discussion on the toast song has come up at national convention. Little has changed. The discussion is the same. The voting ratio has not changed much during this time period.
I have to agree with both Mark and Matt. Having served at the sectional, regional and national levels of this Fraternity for over 20 years on both the east and west coasts. We as a Fraternity must be willing to take a HARD look at our position on a College campus today. There are issues with rush, membership retention, and risk management that plaque many Chapters across this country. These need to be addressed. Oh yes, SERVICE is a problem with some chapters (What is a service program and how to find a service project). Is our current national training programs and supporting literature doing an effective job in help the officers of a Chapter run theire Chapter effectively?
Mike Nathan
Alumnus - Zeta Omicron
-------------- Original message from Matt Cross : --------------
I fully agree with Mark's statements. When I go to Sectional and Regional conferences, I hear students discussing membership issues and risk management issues; the Toast Song is only discussed if there is a workshop or a Regional/National staff-member mentions it.
At the last National Convention, students complained that they were caught off-guard by the Fraternity's need to raise fees due to financial problems. Should we not be addressing why that situation occurred and why it could happen again due to reasons that are within Chapter controls (i.e., lack of paying AAMD)?
Matt Cross
Alumnus -- Psi Omega
Alpha Phi Omega
mailto:mrforklift@cfl.rr.com
From: Alpha Phi Omega Discussion List [mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Allen Stratton
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:57 AM
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
Subject: Re: [APO-L] Toast Song: Majority versus Minority
I'll begin by saying that whether or not the Toast Song changes doesn't affect me in the slightest, and I'll sing whatever Toast Song the Fraternity adopts.
However, one point that Brother Chui makes:
>Do any of you think the Toast Song remaining at "men of" will ever tap the full potential of the great and diverse brotherhood membership in Alpha >Phi Omega?
Brothers, if the Toast Song either "makes or breaks" Alpha Phi Omega in terms of full potential, than I believe we have much greater problems. Folks, the Toast Song isn't the problem, in my opinion. It is something much, much deeper, and we have to find out what it is.
If neither side is willing to give in on this Toast Song issue, maybe the best thing (as some suggested) is to just get rid of it entirely.
We have REAL issues to address, Brothers: non-reporting of chapters; chapters choosing to not bring in pledge classes; risk management issues; competition with other service organizations on campus; volunteers who don't do their jobs; and, of course, financial matters.
Please tell me where the Toast Song rates among those serious and important issues. I will grant that the Toast Song is important to some people. If we TRULY want to help the Fraternity grow, however, it is *my* opinion (and only my opinion) that we have other, far more serious and complicated problems that demand our immediate attention. What if we all took some time to prioritize the issues and see what we come up with? I suspect that you will find the Toast Song won't rate near the top.
Fraternally,
Mark
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<P>Many of the individuals on this list are Alumni Brothers. We as alumni brothers can discuss the toast song issue all day and night on this list. Please remember that it is the active brotherhood at a national convention not alumni brothers, who are going to make any changes to the documents of this Fraternity. Over the last 20 years, that this discussion on the toast song has come up at national convention. Little has changed. The discussion is the same. The voting ratio has not changed much during this time period. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>I have to agree with both Mark and Matt. Having served at the sectional, regional and national levels of this Fraternity for over 20 years on both the east and west coasts. We as a Fraternity must be willing to take a HARD look at our position on a College campus today. There are issues with rush, membership retention, and risk management that plaque many Chapters across this country. These need to be addressed. Oh yes, SERVICE is a problem with some chapters (What is a service program and how to find a service project). Is our current national training programs and supporting literature doing an effective job in help the officers of a Chapter run theire Chapter effectively? </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Mike Nathan</P>
<P>Alumnus - Zeta Omicron </P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P>-------------- Original message from Matt Cross <MRFORKLIFT@CFL.RR.COM>: --------------
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=521464412-05062004>I fully agree with Mark's statements. When I go to Sectional and Regional conferences, I hear students discussing membership issues and risk management issues; the Toast Song is only discussed if there is a workshop or a Regional/National staff-member mentions it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=521464412-05062004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=521464412-05062004>At the last National Convention, students complained that they were caught off-guard by the Fraternity's need to raise fees due to financial problems. Should we not be addressing why that situation occurred and why it could happen again due to reasons that are within Chapter controls (i.e., lack of paying AAMD)?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2><!-- Converted from text/plain format --></P>
<P><FONT size=2>Matt Cross<BR>Alumnus -- Psi Omega<BR>Alpha Phi Omega<BR><A href="mailto:mrforklift@cfl.rr.com">mailto:mrforklift@cfl.rr.com</A></FONT> </P></FONT>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Alpha Phi Omega Discussion List [mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark Allen Stratton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APO-L] Toast Song: Majority versus Minority<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">I'll begin by saying that whether or not the Toast Song changes doesn't affect me in the slightest, and I'll sing whatever Toast Song the Fraternity adopts.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>However, one point that Brother Chui makes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">>Do any of you think the Toast Song remaining at "men of" will ever tap the full potential of the great and diverse brotherhood membership in Alpha >Phi Omega? </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">Brothers, if the Toast Song either "makes or breaks" Alpha Phi Omega in terms of full potential, than I believe we have much greater problems. Folks, the Toast Song isn't the problem, in my opinion. It is something much, much deeper, and we have to find out what it is. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">If neither side is willing to give in on this Toast Song issue, maybe the best thing (as some suggested) is to just get rid of it entirely. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">We have REAL issues to address, Brothers: non-reporting of chapters; chapters choosing to not bring in pledge classes; risk management issues; competition with other service organizations on campus; volunteers who don't do their jobs; and, of course, financial matters.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">Please tell me where the Toast Song rates among those serious and important issues. I will grant that the Toast Song is important to some people. If we TRULY want to help the Fraternity grow, however, it is *my* opinion (and only my opinion) that we have other, far more serious and complicated problems that demand our immediate attention. What if we all took some time to prioritize the issues and see what we come up with? I suspect that you will find the Toast Song won't rate near the top.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">Fraternally,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">Mark</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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