[24046] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] Intrachapter dating
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Gallagher)
Sun Dec 7 23:29:43 2003
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:29:35 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
From: Michael Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
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The pledge educator in this case is a female NIB under the direction of =
the VPM. Is there an issue with this in this context?
Michael Gallagher
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Paul Haring=20
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [APO-L] Intrachapter dating
In Omega chapter we have had some recent history with this issue. In =
fall 2001, the semester just before I pledged there was an incident =
where a Pledge was dating the pledge educator. The exact details as to =
whether or not they were dating BEFORE he pledged is not easily =
answered. However, what is is the fact that it caused a huge rift in =
the chapter. The situation ended when the Educators term came up (we =
re-elect in the winter for two semesters) and they both have been a =
phantom in our chapter ever since.
=20
We have a few instances of inter-chapter dating on the active/active =
level and one of those just recently turned to engagement. =20
=20
Long story short, our chapter (probably around 120-150 members. We =
just activated 41 pledges today so I don't know the exact numbers) does =
not hold an official policy regarding dating. As a rule of thumb, the =
Pledge educator just does not date a pledge.
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Alpha Phi Omega Discussion List =
[mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU] On Behalf Of Rachel Kuhn
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 8:24 PM
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
Subject: Re: [APO-L] Intrachapter dating
=20
I pledged a larger chapter where we never really had a problem with =
brothers dating, it was actually rather common (and when you think about =
it, when a coed group of people with common goals and interests spend =
most of their free time together doing things and having fun, =
relationships are bound to happen) . My chapter also had close to 150 =
members and pledges at any given time, so relationships/breakups have =
never been a problem--they almost always ended on good terms and these =
brothers were able to go about lives in the fraternity happily. We also =
never had problems with boyfriends/girlfriends of actives pledging, =
since the pledge had a different big/family. If a new relationship was =
forming it typically waited until after activation. (People used that =
common sense). My chapter was also not permitted to be selective by =
university policy so we really couldnt regulate that stuff too much (not =
letting boyfriends or girlfriends of actives pledge, etc--we'd lose all =
our funding if that happened). =20
=20
I can definately see where a smaller chapter can have problems caused =
by brothers dating and breaking up. For example, a chapter has ten =
actve brothers. Two are dating, get in a fight, and break up. One of =
the newly single brothers goes on a date with someone else in teh =
chapter. All of a sudden you have a three way mess, and surely the rest =
of the brothers not directly involved will take sides in a situation =
like this. That's a recipe for disaster...but you can't really help or =
prevent who people date or fall in love with, so I don't think having a =
policy on chapter relationships is fair/needed.=20
=20
Rachel Kuhn
Section 89 staff
Buddha Buck <bmbuck@14850.com> wrote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> What policies on intrachapter dating exist? Has there ever been a =
situation
> when a Brother's/officer's/VPM's fiance(e) has pledged? What has =
been done
> in these situations.
My chapter (Epsilon Sigma, University at Buffalo) didn't have an =
oficial
policy on intrachapter dating while I was there. In fact, there were
lots of cases of brothers dating brothers. There are a handful of
intrachapter marriages as well.
While there was no official policy, for risk-management reasons
brother/pledge dating and especially big/little dating (during the
pledge period) was frowned upon because of power/harassment issues. =
If
the relationship predated the pledge pledging, then it wasn't =
frowned upon.
In my pledge class, two pledges started dating each other, and
immediately after the brotherhood ritual, two Brother/NIB =
relationships
(one big/little) were announced. As I understand it, one of those
clandestine brother/pledge relationships ended up in a marriage.
(To make things even weirder, the *other* boyfriend of one of the =
two
pledges who started dating each other pledged the next semester).
>
> I've never been on a date, but I would think that fiance(e)s =
pledging is
> different from boyfriends & girlfriends pledging .
>
> In LFS,
>
> Michael Gallagher
> Historian & Alumni VP (gotta get used to this; I was Webmaster or =
co- since
> Spring 2002)
Rachel Kuhn
Graduate Assistant
Office of Professional Development
Syracuse University
250 Huntington Hall
(315) 443-4696
Alpha Phi Omega
Section 89 Staff
rmkuhn@syr.edu
iceangel99@yahoo.com
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The pledge educator in this case is a =
female NIB=20
under the direction of the VPM. Is there an issue with this in =
this=20
context?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Michael Gallagher</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DShadow359@hotmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:Shadow359@hotmail.com">Paul=20
Haring</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DAPO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 07, 2003 =
10:04=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APO-L] =
Intrachapter=20
dating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond">In =
Omega <SPAN=20
class=3DGramE>chapter</SPAN> we have had some recent history with this =
issue.=20
<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In fall 2001, the =
semester just=20
before I pledged there was an incident where a Pledge was dating the =
pledge=20
educator.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The exact =
details as to=20
whether or not they were dating BEFORE he pledged is not easily =
answered.=20
<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, what is is the =
fact that=20
it caused a huge rift in the chapter.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> =20
</SPAN>The situation ended when the Educators term came up (we =
re-elect in the=20
winter for two semesters) and they both have been a phantom in our =
chapter=20
ever since.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Garamond"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond">We have =
a few=20
instances of inter-chapter dating on the active/active level and one =
of those=20
just recently turned to engagement.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> =20
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Garamond"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DGramE><FONT face=3DGaramond =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Garamond">Long=20
story short, our chapter (probably around 120-150=20
members.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack><SPAN =
style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond"> <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We just activated 41 pledges =
today so I=20
don=92t know the exact numbers<SPAN class=3DGramE>)<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>does</SPAN> not hold an =
official=20
policy regarding dating. <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> </SPAN>As a=20
rule of thumb, the Pledge educator just does not date a=20
pledge.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Garamond"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Garamond"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Garamond"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original=20
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> =
Alpha Phi=20
Omega Discussion List [mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU] <B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Rachel =
Kuhn<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> </SPAN></FONT><st1:date =
Year=3D"2003"=20
Day=3D"7" Month=3D"12"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Sunday, December 07,=20
2003</SPAN></FONT></st1:date><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> =
</SPAN></FONT><st1:time=20
Minute=3D"24" Hour=3D"20"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">8:24=20
PM</SPAN></FONT></st1:time><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> =
APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [APO-L] =
Intrachapter=20
dating</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I pledged a larger chapter =
where we never=20
really had a problem with brothers dating, it was actually rather =
common (and=20
when you think about it, when a coed group of people with common =
goals=20
and interests spend most of their free time together doing things and =
having=20
fun, relationships are bound to happen) . My chapter also =
had close=20
to 150 members and pledges at any given time, so =
relationships/breakups have=20
never been a problem--they almost always ended on good terms and these =
brothers were able to go about lives in the fraternity happily. =
We also=20
never had problems with boyfriends/girlfriends of actives pledging, =
since the=20
pledge had a different big/family. If a new relationship was =
forming it=20
typically waited until after activation. (People used that =
common=20
sense). My chapter was also not permitted to be selective by =
university=20
policy so we really couldnt regulate that stuff too much (not letting=20
boyfriends or girlfriends of actives pledge, etc--we'd lose all our =
funding if=20
that happened). <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I can definately see where a =
smaller=20
chapter can have problems caused by brothers dating and breaking =
up. For=20
example, a chapter has ten actve brothers. Two are dating, get =
in a=20
fight, and break up. One of the newly single brothers goes on a =
date=20
with someone else in teh chapter. All of a sudden you have a =
three way=20
mess, and surely the rest of the brothers not directly involved will =
take=20
sides in a situation like this. That's a recipe for =
disaster...but you=20
can't really help or prevent who people date or fall in love with, so =
I don't=20
think having a policy on chapter relationships is=20
fair/needed. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Rachel=20
Kuhn<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Section 89 =
staff<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Buddha Buck=20
<bmbuck@14850.com></SPAN></I></B>=20
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt =
solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Michael Gallagher =
wrote:<BR>>=20
Greetings,<BR>><BR>> What policies on intrachapter dating =
exist? Has=20
there ever been a situation<BR>> when a Brother's/officer's/VPM's =
fiance(e) has pledged? What has been done<BR>> in these=20
situations.<BR><BR>My chapter (Epsilon Sigma, University at=20
</SPAN></FONT><st1:City><st1:place>Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City>) =
didn't=20
have an oficial<BR>policy on intrachapter dating while I was there. =
In fact,=20
there were<BR>lots of cases of brothers dating brothers. There are a =
handful=20
of<BR>intrachapter marriages as well.<BR><BR>While there was no =
official=20
policy, for risk-management reasons<BR>brother/pledge dating and =
especially=20
big/little dating (during the<BR>pledge period) was frowned upon =
because of=20
power/harassment issues. If<BR>the relationship predated the pledge=20
pledging, then it wasn't frowned upon.<BR><BR>In my pledge class, =
two=20
pledges started dating each other, and<BR>immediately after the =
brotherhood=20
ritual, two Brother/NIB relationships<BR>(one big/little) were =
announced. As=20
I understand it, one of those<BR>clandestine brother/pledge =
relationships=20
ended up in a marriage.<BR><BR>(To make things even weirder, the =
*other*=20
boyfriend of one of the two<BR>pledges who started dating each other =
pledged=20
the next semester).<BR><BR>><BR>> I've never been on a date, =
but I=20
would think that fiance(e)s pledging is<BR>> different from =
boyfriends=20
& girlfriends pledging .<BR>><BR>> In LFS,<BR>><BR>> =
Michael=20
Gallagher<BR>> Historian & Alumni VP (gotta get used to this; =
I was=20
Webmaster or co- since<BR>> Spring =
2002)<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>Rachel =
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<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
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