[98695] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Thu May 29 22:20:35 2014
In-Reply-To: <002001cf7ba6$056d23e0$10476ba0$@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 22:20:14 -0400
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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In the examples you cite, the "need" is relative to some purpose, which is
implied. Also, volition does not necessarily coincide with "need,"
particularly if the supposed need serves someone else's ends. Perhaps
Klingons assert different views of the purpose to be served when they use
the ending {nIS}.
However, you make a good point. Similar misuse of "need" in such contexts
in English (and other Earth languages) does not mean that Klingons also
indulge in such verbal posturing. It seems somehow indirect, and therefore
un-Klingon.
~'eD
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote=
:
> Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of
> competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for th=
e
> beginners=E2=80=99 course.
>
>
> We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes represent the volition of the
> subject to perform the action of the verb. We also have the sentence from
> Star Trek V: DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu' =3D Romulan
> women belong on their backs. Clearly in this sentence Korrd is not
> describing the actual volition of Romulan women, nor what he believes
> about what they personally need, but his own opinion, what they would
> need to do to satisfy him, similar to us saying, =E2=80=9CThat food needs=
to be
> in my belly.=E2=80=9D
>
> I think I say and hear things like this in Klingon all the time. Are we =
correct?
> Is Korrd=E2=80=99s line an aberration or regionalism? Would you feel it c=
orrect or incorrect
> to advise beginners to avoid this usage?
>
> Would you accept the sentence:
>
> jagh mernIS bachlIj.
>
> Clearly the shot itself has no volition, it is the speaker (addressing
> the gunner) who has the need.
>
> Discuss.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
--=20
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
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<div dir=3D"ltr">In the examples you cite, the "need" is relative=
to some purpose, which is implied. Also, volition does not necessarily coi=
ncide with "need," particularly if the supposed need serves someo=
ne else's ends. Perhaps Klingons assert different views of the purpose =
to be served when they use the ending {nIS}.<div>
<br></div><div>However, you make a good point. Similar misuse of "need=
" in such contexts in English (and other Earth languages) does not mea=
n that Klingons also indulge in such verbal posturing. It seems somehow ind=
irect, and therefore un-Klingon.<div>
~'eD</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <span dir=3D"lt=
r"><<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyi=
ngstart.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">Once again I=
am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of competent Klingon speak=
ers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for the beginners=E2=80=99 cour=
se</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">.</font></s=
pan><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Courier New">We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes repre=
sent the volition of the subject to perform the action of the verb.</font><=
/span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New"></font></span><span l=
ang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">We also have the sentence</font><=
/span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">from Star Trek V:</f=
ont></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">DungDaq legh &#=
39;ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu'</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca=
"><font face=3D"Courier New"> =3D Romulan women belong on their backs.</fon=
t></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New"></font></span><spa=
n lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">Clearly</font></span><span lan=
g=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">in this sentence</font></span><span=
lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">Korrd is not describing the act=
ual volition of Romulan women,</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font fac=
e=3D"Courier New">nor what he believes about what they personally need,</fo=
nt></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">but his own opin=
ion,</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New"> what the=
y would need to do to satisfy him,</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Courier New"> similar to us saying,</font></span><span lang=3D"en-c=
a"> <font face=3D"Courier New">=E2=80=9CThat food needs to be in my belly.=
=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">I think I</fo=
nt></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New"> say</font></span=
><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">and hear</font></span><sp=
an lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">things like this</font></span=
><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">in Klingon</font></span><=
span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">all the time.=C2=A0</font><=
/span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">Are we</font></span>=
<span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">correct? Is Korrd=E2=80=99=
s line an abe</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">=
r</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">ration</font=
></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">or regionalism? Wo=
uld you feel it</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier Ne=
w">correct or</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New"=
>incorrect to advise beginners to avoid this</font></span><span lang=3D"en-=
ca"> <font face=3D"Courier New">usage? </font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">Would you ac=
cept the sentence:</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">jagh mernIS =
bachlIj.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">=C2=
=A0 </font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">Clearly the =
shot itself has no volition</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D=
"Courier New">, it is the speaker (addressing the gunner) who has the need.=
</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Courier New">Discuss.</fo=
nt></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>My model=
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http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerop=
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ttp://bellerophon.blog.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/=
</a><br>
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