[98696] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Thu May 29 22:37:12 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CABSTb1f8E2ovORZkqfaLwX6FN=A3mLY-uW-wg5jhZANdjvbBxg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 19:36:49 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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When I say volition I am quoting TKD 4.2.2. I will further quote: =
=E2=80=9Csuffixes of this type express how much choice the subject has =
about the action described or how predisposed the subject is to doing =
it.=E2=80=9D
=20
From: Bellerophon, modeler [mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com]=20
Sent: May 29, 2014 19:20
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
=20
In the examples you cite, the "need" is relative to some purpose, which =
is implied. Also, volition does not necessarily coincide with "need," =
particularly if the supposed need serves someone else's ends. Perhaps =
Klingons assert different views of the purpose to be served when they =
use the ending {nIS}.
=20
However, you make a good point. Similar misuse of "need" in such =
contexts in English (and other Earth languages) does not mean that =
Klingons also indulge in such verbal posturing. It seems somehow =
indirect, and therefore un-Klingon.
~'eD
=20
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of =
competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for =
the beginners=E2=80=99 course.
We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes represent the volition of the =
subject to perform the action of the verb. We also have the sentence =
from Star Trek V: DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu' =3D =
Romulan women belong on their backs. Clearly in this sentence Korrd is =
not describing the actual volition of Romulan women, nor what he =
believes about what they personally need, but his own opinion, what they =
would need to do to satisfy him, similar to us saying, =E2=80=9CThat =
food needs to be in my belly.=E2=80=9D
I think I say and hear things like this in Klingon all the time. Are we =
correct? Is Korrd=E2=80=99s line an aberration or regionalism? Would you =
feel it correct or incorrect to advise beginners to avoid this usage?=20
Would you accept the sentence:
jagh mernIS bachlIj. =20
Clearly the shot itself has no volition, it is the speaker (addressing =
the gunner) who has the need.
Discuss.
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
--=20
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>When I say volition I am quoting TKD 4.2.2.=C2=A0 I will further =
quote: =E2=80=9Csuffixes of this type express how much choice the =
subject has about the action described or how predisposed the subject is =
to doing it.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Bellerophon, modeler [mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> May 29, 2014 19:20<br><b>To:</b> =
tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose =
volition?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>In the =
examples you cite, the "need" is relative to some purpose, =
which is implied. Also, volition does not necessarily coincide with =
"need," particularly if the supposed need serves someone =
else's ends. Perhaps Klingons assert different views of the purpose to =
be served when they use the ending {nIS}.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>However, you make a good point. Similar misuse of =
"need" in such contexts in English (and other Earth languages) =
does not mean that Klingons also indulge in such verbal posturing. It =
seems somehow indirect, and therefore un-Klingon.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>~'eD<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" =
target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of =
competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for =
the beginners=E2=80=99 course.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><br><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>We know from TKD that type 2 verb =
suffixes represent the volition of the subject to perform the action of =
the verb.</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>We also have =
the sentence</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>from Star =
Trek V:</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>DungDaq legh =
'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu' =3D Romulan women belong on their =
backs.</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Clearly</span> =
<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>in this sentence</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Korrd is not describing the actual =
volition of Romulan women,</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>nor what he believes about what they personally need,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>but his own opinion, what they would =
need to do to satisfy him, similar to us saying,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=E2=80=9CThat food needs to be in my =
belly.=E2=80=9D<br><br>I think I say</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>and hear</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>things like this</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>in Klingon</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>all the time. </span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Are we</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>correct? Is Korrd=E2=80=99s line an =
aberration</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>or =
regionalism? Would you feel it</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>correct or</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>incorrect to advise beginners to =
avoid this</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>usage? =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Would =
you accept the sentence:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>jagh mernIS bachlIj. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>Clearly the shot itself has no volition, it is the speaker =
(addressing the gunner) who has the need.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>Discuss.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<br>My modeling =
blog: <a =
href=3D"http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/</a><br>My =
other modeling blog: <a href=3D"http://bellerophon.blog.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></=
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_______________________________________________
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