[98429] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Multiple verb suffixes
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Tue Apr 15 18:06:33 2014
In-Reply-To: <20140415104203.a41e5a76f06d90ef255b5a241771595e.4c2906f35b.wbe@email01.secureserver.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 18:05:59 -0400
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>
> I believe the general rule is that each suffix, not counting rovers,
> applies to the verb independently, and most ordering issues are a
> product of translation.
>
> For instance, in {DaH jIbwIj vISay'nISmoH} the -nIS tells us that the
> subject (I) needs to do something and the -moH tells us that the subject
> (I) causes something to happen. We have not said that my hair needs to
> do something. Don't read a verb with -moH by visualizing the object
> jumping between the -moH and the rest of the verb to become a new
> subject; it remains an object of the entire verb. I cause it to be
> clean. I need to do this.
>
You may not have answered every question, but this is helpful. As far as
placing the object between the verb and -moH, sometimes there's no better
translation, not that one should shoehorn Klingon into English (or German,
or whatever) conceptions of grammar.
I remember I was pretty impressed when I first realized the power of -moH
to make an intransitive verb transitive, as in {pummoH}. The subject of
{pum} becomes the object of {pummoH}, and the new subject is the agency
causing the action of falling. Cool! It could be translated piecewise as
"cause (something) to fall" or simply "knock down." You might also have
{bommoH} "cause (someone) to sing," for which there isn't a simple verb in
English, but I think {nubommoH yay} would make perfect sense to a Klingon.
(If there were such an English verb, it might be something like "cantify,"
and when Manchester United fans got cantified they'd all sing "You'll Never
Walk Alone.")
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
> We have a clear example of such usage in Skybox Trading Card S20
> {Ha'quj} "Klingon Sash":
>
> qorDu'Daj tuq 'oS Ha'quje'e' tuQbogh wo'rIv. tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD
> quHDaj qawmoH.
> "The sash that WorfT wears is a symbol of his family's house. He wears
> it proudly as a reminder of his heritage."
>
> The grammar evident here hints at the intended usage of the otherwise
> problematic set of words {tuQ} "wear", {tuQmoH} "put on (clothes)",
> and {tuQHa'moH} "undress" from TKD.
>
> -- ghunchu'wI'
>
> I'd expect from {tuQ} that "put on (clothes)" and "undress" would use
-choH instead of -moH. Maybe {tuQmoH} and {tuQHa'moH} are idioms.
But in general, it seems impossible to add -moH to a transitive verb. You
could have {Hoch nuH qel torgh}, but if you try to use {qelmoH} to have one
clause in which Maltz causes Torg to do this considering, {qelmoH} would
have two objects, and it doesn't make grammatical sense. I see no
alternative to two clauses, such as {Hoch nuH qel torgh ra'mo' matlh} or
{Hoch nuH qel torgh. torgh qelmoH matlh}. (BTW, I get that by leaving off
aspect suffixes in this example I have implied the action described is more
in the nature of standard operating procedure than a single episode that is
in progress or has reached completion. See SuStel, I am not untrainable.)
~'eD
--
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto=
:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span=
> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><br>
I believe the general rule is that each suffix, not counting rovers,<br>
applies to the verb independently, and most ordering issues are a<br>
product of translation.<br>
<br>
For instance, in {DaH jIbwIj vISay'nISmoH} the -nIS tells us that the<b=
r>
subject (I) needs to do something and the -moH tells us that the subject<br=
>
(I) causes something to happen. We have not said that my hair needs to<br>
do something. Don't read a verb with -moH by visualizing the object<br>
jumping between the -moH and the rest of the verb to become a new<br>
subject; it remains an object of the entire verb. I cause it to be<br>
clean. I need to do this.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You may not h=
ave answered every question, but this is helpful. As far as placing the obj=
ect between the verb and -moH, sometimes there's no better translation,=
not that one should shoehorn Klingon into English (or German, or whatever)=
conceptions of grammar.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I remember I was pretty impressed when I first realized=
the power of -moH to make an intransitive verb transitive, as in {pummoH}.=
=C2=A0The subject of {pum} becomes the object of {pummoH}, and the new sub=
ject is the agency causing the action of falling. Cool! It could be transla=
ted piecewise as "cause (something) to fall" or simply "knoc=
k down." You might also have {bommoH} "cause (someone) to sing,&q=
uot; for which there isn't a simple verb in English, but I think {nubom=
moH yay} would make perfect sense to a Klingon. (If there were such an Engl=
ish verb, it might be something like "cantify," and when Manchest=
er United fans got cantified they'd all sing "You'll Never Wal=
k Alone.")</div>
<div><br></div><div>On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Alan Anderson=C2=A0<s=
pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>qunchuy@alcaco.net</a>></span>=C2=A0wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-lef=
t-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
We have a clear example of such usage in Skybox Trading Card S20<br>{Ha'=
;quj} "Klingon Sash":<br><br>qorDu'Daj tuq 'oS Ha'quj=
e'e' tuQbogh wo'rIv. tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD<br>quHDaj qawmoH.<b=
r>
"The sash that WorfT wears is a symbol of his family's house. He w=
ears<br>it proudly as a reminder of his heritage."<br><br>The grammar =
evident here hints at the intended usage of the otherwise<br>problematic se=
t of words {tuQ} "wear", {tuQmoH} "put on (clothes)",<b=
r>
and {tuQHa'moH} "undress" from TKD.<br><br>-- ghunchu'wI&=
#39;<br><br></blockquote><div>I'd expect from {tuQ} that "put on (=
clothes)" and "undress" would use -choH instead of -moH. May=
be=C2=A0{tuQmoH} and {tuQHa'moH} are idioms.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But in general, it seems impossible to add -moH to a tr=
ansitive verb. You could have {Hoch nuH qel torgh}, but if you try to use=
=C2=A0{qelmoH} to have one clause in which Maltz causes Torg to do this con=
sidering, {qelmoH} would have two objects, and it doesn't make grammati=
cal sense. I see no alternative to two clauses, such as {Hoch nuH qel=C2=A0=
torgh=C2=A0ra'mo' matlh} or {Hoch nuH qel=C2=A0torgh.=C2=A0torgh=C2=
=A0qelmoH=C2=A0matlh}. (BTW, I get that by leaving off aspect suffixes in t=
his example I have implied the action described is more in the nature of st=
andard operating procedure than a single episode that is in progress or has=
reached completion. See SuStel, I am not untrainable.)</div>
<div><br></div></div><div>~'eD</div></div>-- <br>My modeling blog:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://belle=
rophon-modeler.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon-modeler.=
blogspot.com/</a><br>My other modeling blog:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://beller=
ophon.blog.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com</a><br>
</div></div>
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