[98356] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for translating be-verbs
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sun Apr 6 23:12:05 2014
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 23:11:40 -0400
To: tlhInganHol discussion group <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAG_hjBR+479D79M0-Th2g4kSqMuSpFugtMkGO9OF--PX4TC-wQ@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============6829972939075504136==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9AE4DD4A-A6BA-4753-B4DE-2E069BE8F37B"
--Apple-Mail=_9AE4DD4A-A6BA-4753-B4DE-2E069BE8F37B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
I agree here, though there=E2=80=99s reasoning not stated yet.
Okrand didn=E2=80=99t want Klingon to have the verb =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D=
, so he created mechanisms to work around it. The adjectival verbs were =
one tool. The use of pronouns as verbs was a second tool. {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=
=80=99} is a third tool. So, using adjectival tools with {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=
=80=99} is doubling up your =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D replacements. It=E2=80=
=99s not a job that needs to be done twice.
You use {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} for things like =E2=80=9CThere are =
Klingons speaking in the room.=E2=80=9D {pa=E2=80=99Daq jatlh tlhIngan =
tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9COne finds Klingons speaking in the =
room.=E2=80=9D Typical English translation uses =E2=80=9Care=E2=80=9D. =
Klingon uses =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D. Same meaning root, but totally =
different word choice, like a different language, instead of like an =
encoding of the original language.
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Apr 6, 2014, at 10:10 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence =
<elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would certainly prefer to see the Klingon sentences you used as =
examples over the same sentences with a tu'lu' on the end. I would want =
tu'lu' if there were no stative verbs, if the emphasis was on the =
finding (though in that case, -lu' might well not fit), or with stative =
verbs where the meaning with and without "there is" is not equivalent.
>=20
> For example, for law' Iw' "Blood is abundant." and "There is a lot of =
blood." convey the same meaning in different styles. For Doq paq "The =
book is red." and "There is a red book." don't have the same semantic =
content.I would not translate Doq paq as "There is a red book."
>=20
> As for what translation I would use in your examples, I wouldn't have =
a problem with someone else's use of either, but which I would use would =
depend on my intent. If I was trying to translate colloquial Klingon to =
colloquial English, I might well prefer the "There is" translations, but =
if I was trying to convey in English the feel of colloquial Klingon, I =
would choose the more direct translations.
>=20
> For your beginner course, you might want to include a couple of =
examples with both the very direct and more colloquial translations, to =
help give students a sense of the kinds of rephrasing they will have to =
do when they are translating their English ideas into Klingon sentences.
>=20
> be''etlh
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
> > law' 'Iw. - Blood is abundant. =3D There's a lot of blood.
> > puS Soj. - Food is sparse. =3D There's not much food.
>=20
> > does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is necessary in order to use
> > that translation. Does anyone prefer 'Iw law' tu'lu'
> > for that thought and think puS Soj is stilted?
>=20
> Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder ring phrase
> substitution?
>=20
> Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle attributed text properly).
> Qov> We're looking for a translation that, when presented in a =
dialogue for
> beginners, will not make any of the experts complain that it is poor =
form,
> or teaching the beginners incorrectly.
>=20
> > To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the blood being abundant.
> > ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that "one discovers" much blood.
>=20
> Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the presence of =
something,
> akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and Russian =D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C=
. We have much canon to
> support "there is" being a natural translation.
>=20
> What is the focus in the story being told?
>=20
> Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the kids are making by
> fighting with knives in the house, but the real focus is use of the =
stative
> verb law'. I want to ensure that when I write <law' 'Iw> that =
experienced
> speakers will see a well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there =
is a
> lot of blood" is an acceptable translation.
>=20
> > It's the same idea: "verb X" which should strictly be translated as
> > "X verbs" becomes "There is X verbing."
>=20
> This could fall into how we often joke about the wordiness of English.
>=20
> Qov> Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding translations.
>=20
> > I don't expect anyone is going to object to such translations, but I
> > have been twitching for fifteen years every time I see ghopHomDu'
> > translated as "small hands" in the postal course, so I want to make
> > sure this doesn't irk anyone.
>=20
> I cringe every time someone uses -'a' and -Hom to denote simply "big" =
and
> "small".
> Example, a crown is not necessarily big.
>=20
> Qov> That was my point. The existing postal course, created about 15 =
years
> ago, not by me, used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing
> anything that makes others cringe or twitch.
>=20
> I can understand how using "there's..." when teaching beginners could =
cause
> some confusion. When I study a new language, I want to see a choppy
> word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of the =
sentence
> actually means. How do you learn vocabulary from actual usage if =
everyone
> keeps throwing in extra words.
> But... I have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have never
> studied a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were =
given
> as choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial form.
>=20
> Qov> The intended audience is the serious student of Klingon, so I am =
not
> overly worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. =
Thank
> you.
>=20
>=20
> -- DloraH
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_9AE4DD4A-A6BA-4753-B4DE-2E069BE8F37B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>I =
agree here, though there=E2=80=99s reasoning not stated =
yet.</div><div><br></div><div>Okrand didn=E2=80=99t want Klingon to have =
the verb =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D, so he created mechanisms to work =
around it. The adjectival verbs were one tool. The use of pronouns as =
verbs was a second tool. {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} is a third tool. So, =
using adjectival tools with {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} is doubling up your =
=E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D replacements. It=E2=80=99s not a job that needs =
to be done twice.</div><div><br></div><div>You use {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99=
} for things like =E2=80=9CThere are Klingons speaking in the room.=E2=80=9D=
{pa=E2=80=99Daq jatlh tlhIngan tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9COne =
finds Klingons speaking in the room.=E2=80=9D Typical English =
translation uses =E2=80=9Care=E2=80=9D. Klingon uses =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=
=9D. Same meaning root, but totally different word choice, like a =
different language, instead of like an encoding of the original =
language.</div><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh</div><div>Door =
Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Apr 6, 2014, at 10:10 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <<a =
href=3D"mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com">elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.=
com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">I would certainly prefer to see the Klingon sentences you =
used as examples over the same sentences with a tu'lu' on the end. =
I would want tu'lu' if there were no stative verbs, if the =
emphasis was on the finding (though in that case, -lu' might well not =
fit), or with stative verbs where the meaning with and without "there =
is" is not equivalent.<div>
<br></div><div>For example, for <b>law' Iw'</b> "Blood is abundant." and =
"There is a lot of blood." convey the same meaning in different styles. =
For <b>Doq paq</b> "The book is red." and "There is a red =
book." don't have the same semantic content.I would not translate <b>Doq =
paq</b> as "There is a red book."</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for what translation I would use in your =
examples, I wouldn't have a problem with someone else's use of either, =
but which I would use would depend on my intent. If I was trying =
to translate colloquial Klingon to colloquial English, I might well =
prefer the "There is" translations, but if I was trying to convey in =
English the feel of colloquial Klingon, I would choose the more direct =
translations.</div>
<div><br></div><div>For your beginner course, you might want to include =
a couple of examples with both the very direct and more colloquial =
translations, to help give students a sense of the kinds of rephrasing =
they will have to do when they are translating their English ideas into =
Klingon sentences.</div>
<div><br></div><div>be''etlh</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 6, =
2014 at 2:15 PM, Robyn Stewart <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" =
target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">> =
law' 'Iw. - Blood is abundant. =3D There's a lot of blood.<br>
> puS Soj. - Food is sparse. =3D There's not much food.<br>
<br>
> does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is necessary in order to =
use<br>
> that translation. Does anyone prefer 'Iw law' tu'lu'<br>
> for that thought and think puS Soj is stilted?<br>
<br>
Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder ring phrase<br>
substitution?<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle attributed text =
properly).<br>
Qov> We're looking for a translation that, when presented in a =
dialogue for<br>
beginners, will not make any of the experts complain that it is poor =
form,<br>
or teaching the beginners incorrectly.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
> To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the blood being abundant.<br>
> ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that "one discovers" much =
blood.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the presence of =
something,<br>
akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and Russian =D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C. =
We have much canon to<br>
support "there is" being a natural translation.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
What is the focus in the story being told?<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the kids are =
making by<br>
fighting with knives in the house, but the real focus is use of the =
stative<br>
verb law'. I want to ensure that when I write <law' 'Iw> that =
experienced<br>
speakers will see a well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there is =
a<br>
lot of blood" is an acceptable translation.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
> It's the same idea: "verb X" which should strictly be =
translated as<br>
> "X verbs" becomes "There is X verbing."<br>
<br>
This could fall into how we often joke about the wordiness of =
English.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding =
translations.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
> I don't expect anyone is going to object to such translations, but =
I<br>
> have been twitching for fifteen years every time I see =
ghopHomDu'<br>
> translated as "small hands" in the postal course, so I want to =
make<br>
> sure this doesn't irk anyone.<br>
<br>
I cringe every time someone uses -'a' and -Hom to denote simply "big" =
and<br>
"small".<br>
Example, a crown is not necessarily big.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> That was my point. The existing postal course, created =
about 15 years<br>
ago, not by me, used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing<br>
anything that makes others cringe or twitch.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
I can understand how using "there's..." when teaching beginners could =
cause<br>
some confusion. When I study a new language, I want to see a =
choppy<br>
word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of the =
sentence<br>
actually means. How do you learn vocabulary from actual usage if =
everyone<br>
keeps throwing in extra words.<br>
But... I have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have =
never<br>
studied a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were =
given<br>
as choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial form.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> The intended audience is the serious student of Klingon, =
so I am not<br>
overly worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. =
Thank<br>
you.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
-- DloraH<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br=
>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br=
>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>http://ma=
il.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br></blockquote></div><br></body>=
</html>=
--Apple-Mail=_9AE4DD4A-A6BA-4753-B4DE-2E069BE8F37B--
--===============6829972939075504136==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============6829972939075504136==--
