[98355] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for translating be-verbs
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Elizabeth Lawrence)
Sun Apr 6 22:11:00 2014
In-Reply-To: <006c01cf51c4$3cd55ed0$b6801c70$@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 22:10:26 -0400
From: Elizabeth Lawrence <elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhInganHol discussion group <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I would certainly prefer to see the Klingon sentences you used as examples
over the same sentences with a tu'lu' on the end. I would want tu'lu' if
there were no stative verbs, if the emphasis was on the finding (though in
that case, -lu' might well not fit), or with stative verbs where the
meaning with and without "there is" is not equivalent.
For example, for *law' Iw'* "Blood is abundant." and "There is a lot of
blood." convey the same meaning in different styles. For *Doq paq* "The
book is red." and "There is a red book." don't have the same semantic
content.I would not translate *Doq paq* as "There is a red book."
As for what translation I would use in your examples, I wouldn't have a
problem with someone else's use of either, but which I would use would
depend on my intent. If I was trying to translate colloquial Klingon to
colloquial English, I might well prefer the "There is" translations, but if
I was trying to convey in English the feel of colloquial Klingon, I would
choose the more direct translations.
For your beginner course, you might want to include a couple of examples
with both the very direct and more colloquial translations, to help give
students a sense of the kinds of rephrasing they will have to do when they
are translating their English ideas into Klingon sentences.
be''etlh
On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
> > law' 'Iw. - Blood is abundant. =3D There's a lot of blood.
> > puS Soj. - Food is sparse. =3D There's not much food.
>
> > does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is necessary in order to use
> > that translation. Does anyone prefer 'Iw law' tu'lu'
> > for that thought and think puS Soj is stilted?
>
> Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder ring phrase
> substitution?
>
> Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle attributed text properly).
> Qov> We're looking for a translation that, when presented in a dialogue f=
or
> beginners, will not make any of the experts complain that it is poor form=
,
> or teaching the beginners incorrectly.
>
> > To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the blood being abundant.
> > ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that "one discovers" much blood.
>
> Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the presence of something=
,
> akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and Russian =D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C.=
We have much canon to
> support "there is" being a natural translation.
>
> What is the focus in the story being told?
>
> Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the kids are making by
> fighting with knives in the house, but the real focus is use of the stati=
ve
> verb law'. I want to ensure that when I write <law' 'Iw> that experienced
> speakers will see a well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there is =
a
> lot of blood" is an acceptable translation.
>
> > It's the same idea: "verb X" which should strictly be translated as
> > "X verbs" becomes "There is X verbing."
>
> This could fall into how we often joke about the wordiness of English.
>
> Qov> Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding translations.
>
> > I don't expect anyone is going to object to such translations, but I
> > have been twitching for fifteen years every time I see ghopHomDu'
> > translated as "small hands" in the postal course, so I want to make
> > sure this doesn't irk anyone.
>
> I cringe every time someone uses -'a' and -Hom to denote simply "big" and
> "small".
> Example, a crown is not necessarily big.
>
> Qov> That was my point. The existing postal course, created about 15 year=
s
> ago, not by me, used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing
> anything that makes others cringe or twitch.
>
> I can understand how using "there's..." when teaching beginners could cau=
se
> some confusion. When I study a new language, I want to see a choppy
> word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of the sentence
> actually means. How do you learn vocabulary from actual usage if everyon=
e
> keeps throwing in extra words.
> But... I have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have never
> studied a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were give=
n
> as choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial form.
>
> Qov> The intended audience is the serious student of Klingon, so I am not
> overly worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. Thank
> you.
>
>
> -- DloraH
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I would certainly prefer to see the Klingon sentences you =
used as examples over the same sentences with a tu'lu' on the end. =
=C2=A0I would want tu'lu' if there were no stative verbs, if the em=
phasis was on the finding (though in that case, -lu' might well not fit=
), or with stative verbs where the meaning with and without "there is&=
quot; is not equivalent.<div>
<br></div><div>For example, for <b>law' Iw'</b> "Blood is abun=
dant." and "There is a lot of blood." convey the same meanin=
g in different styles. =C2=A0For <b>Doq paq</b>=C2=A0"The book is red.=
" and "There is a red book." don't have the same semanti=
c content.I would not translate <b>Doq paq</b>=C2=A0as "There is a red=
book."</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for what translation I would use in your examples, I=
wouldn't have a problem with someone else's use of either, but whi=
ch I would use would depend on my intent. =C2=A0If I was trying to translat=
e colloquial Klingon to colloquial English, I might well prefer the "T=
here is" translations, but if I was trying to convey in English the fe=
el of colloquial Klingon, I would choose the more direct translations.</div=
>
<div><br></div><div>For your beginner course, you might want to include a c=
ouple of examples with both the very direct and more colloquial translation=
s, to help give students a sense of the kinds of rephrasing they will have =
to do when they are translating their English ideas into Klingon sentences.=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>be''etlh</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Robyn St=
ewart <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=
=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">> law' 'Iw. - Blo=
od is abundant. =3D There's a lot of blood.<br>
> puS Soj. - Food is sparse. =3D There's not much food.<br>
<br>
> does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is necessary in =
order to use<br>
> that translation. Does anyone prefer 'Iw law' tu'lu'<b=
r>
> for that thought and think puS Soj is stilted?<br>
<br>
Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder ring phrase<br>
substitution?<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle attributed text pr=
operly).<br>
Qov> We're looking for a translation that, when presented in a dialo=
gue for<br>
beginners, will not make any of the experts complain that it is poor form,<=
br>
or teaching the beginners incorrectly.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
> To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the blood being abundant.<br>
> ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that "one dis=
covers" much blood.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the presen=
ce of something,<br>
akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and Russian =D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C. W=
e have much canon to<br>
support "there is" being a natural translation.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
What is the focus in the story being told?<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the kids are makin=
g by<br>
fighting with knives in the house, but the real focus is use of the stative=
<br>
verb law'. I want to ensure that when I write <law' 'Iw> =
that experienced<br>
speakers will see a well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there =
is a<br>
lot of blood" is an acceptable translation.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
> It's the same idea: =C2=A0"verb X" which should strictly=
be translated as<br>
> "X verbs" becomes "There is X verbing."<br>
<br>
This could fall into how we often joke about the wordiness of English.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding translations.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
> I don't expect anyone is going to object to such translations, but=
I<br>
> have been twitching for fifteen years every time I see ghopHomDu'<=
br>
> translated as "small hands" in the postal course, so I want =
to make<br>
> sure this doesn't irk anyone.<br>
<br>
I cringe every time someone uses -'a' and -Hom to denote simply &qu=
ot;big" and<br>
"small".<br>
Example, a crown is not necessarily big.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> That was my point. The existing postal course, created about =
15 years<br>
ago, not by me, used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing<br>
anything that makes others cringe or twitch.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
I can understand how using "there's..." when teaching beginne=
rs could cause<br>
some confusion. =C2=A0When I study a new language, I want to see a choppy<b=
r>
word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of the sentence<br=
>
actually means. =C2=A0How do you learn vocabulary from actual usage if ever=
yone<br>
keeps throwing in extra words.<br>
But... I have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have never<br>
studied a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were given<=
br>
as choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial form.<br>
<br>
</div>Qov> The intended audience is the serious student of Klingon, so I=
am not<br>
overly worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. Thank<b=
r>
you.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
-- DloraH<br>
<br>
<br>
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ank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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ank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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