[98357] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for translating
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Apr 7 01:14:28 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "'tlhInganHol discussion group'" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <1CDE5D42-3817-4F42-8B00-32760B7EC045@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 22:14:12 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Thanks, all,
No one has said anything I disagree with here. I want the course to =
show examples of indisputably good Klingon, and I want to be able to =
back it up with canon. As I was going over what I had written, I thought =
perhaps that there were Klingonists who would not consider <law=E2=80=99 =
=E2=80=98Iw> or <puS Soj> to be well-formed sentences, because of the =
awkward direct translations. I am comfortable with them, but was unable =
to find a similar sentence in canon.=20
I think, lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv, that you=E2=80=99re the one =
who taught me to favour sentences of this type. :-) I will soon post a =
link to a sample formatted lesson, and make available the content for =
the first fifteen or so, for your nitpicking pleasure. It=E2=80=99s a =
painful step, and I may call closure on the debate before all the horses =
have been beaten completely flat, but a beginner=E2=80=99s course should =
present Klingon that any Klingonist will accept.
- Qov
=20
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]=20
Sent: April 6, 2014 20:12
To: tlhInganHol discussion group
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for translating be-verbs =
with"there"
=20
I agree here, though there=E2=80=99s reasoning not stated yet.
=20
Okrand didn=E2=80=99t want Klingon to have the verb =E2=80=9Cto =
be=E2=80=9D, so he created mechanisms to work around it. The adjectival =
verbs were one tool. The use of pronouns as verbs was a second tool. =
{tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} is a third tool. So, using adjectival tools =
with {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} is doubling up your =E2=80=9Cto =
be=E2=80=9D replacements. It=E2=80=99s not a job that needs to be done =
twice.
=20
You use {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} for things like =E2=80=9CThere are =
Klingons speaking in the room.=E2=80=9D {pa=E2=80=99Daq jatlh tlhIngan =
tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9COne finds Klingons speaking in the =
room.=E2=80=9D Typical English translation uses =E2=80=9Care=E2=80=9D. =
Klingon uses =E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D. Same meaning root, but totally =
different word choice, like a different language, instead of like an =
encoding of the original language.
=20
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
=20
=20
=20
On Apr 6, 2014, at 10:10 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence =
<elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com> wrote:
I would certainly prefer to see the Klingon sentences you used as =
examples over the same sentences with a tu'lu' on the end. I would want =
tu'lu' if there were no stative verbs, if the emphasis was on the =
finding (though in that case, -lu' might well not fit), or with stative =
verbs where the meaning with and without "there is" is not equivalent.
=20
For example, for law' Iw' "Blood is abundant." and "There is a lot of =
blood." convey the same meaning in different styles. For Doq paq "The =
book is red." and "There is a red book." don't have the same semantic =
content.I would not translate Doq paq as "There is a red book."
=20
As for what translation I would use in your examples, I wouldn't have a =
problem with someone else's use of either, but which I would use would =
depend on my intent. If I was trying to translate colloquial Klingon to =
colloquial English, I might well prefer the "There is" translations, but =
if I was trying to convey in English the feel of colloquial Klingon, I =
would choose the more direct translations.
=20
For your beginner course, you might want to include a couple of examples =
with both the very direct and more colloquial translations, to help give =
students a sense of the kinds of rephrasing they will have to do when =
they are translating their English ideas into Klingon sentences.
=20
be''etlh
=20
On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
> law' 'Iw. - Blood is abundant. =3D There's a lot of blood.
> puS Soj. - Food is sparse. =3D There's not much food.
> does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is necessary in order to use
> that translation. Does anyone prefer 'Iw law' tu'lu'
> for that thought and think puS Soj is stilted?
Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder ring phrase
substitution?
Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle attributed text properly).
Qov> We're looking for a translation that, when presented in a dialogue =
for
beginners, will not make any of the experts complain that it is poor =
form,
or teaching the beginners incorrectly.
> To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the blood being abundant.
> ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that "one discovers" much blood.
Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the presence of =
something,
akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and Russian =
=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C. We have much canon to
support "there is" being a natural translation.
What is the focus in the story being told?
Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the kids are making by
fighting with knives in the house, but the real focus is use of the =
stative
verb law'. I want to ensure that when I write <law' 'Iw> that =
experienced
speakers will see a well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there is =
a
lot of blood" is an acceptable translation.
> It's the same idea: "verb X" which should strictly be translated as
> "X verbs" becomes "There is X verbing."
This could fall into how we often joke about the wordiness of English.
Qov> Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding translations.
> I don't expect anyone is going to object to such translations, but I
> have been twitching for fifteen years every time I see ghopHomDu'
> translated as "small hands" in the postal course, so I want to make
> sure this doesn't irk anyone.
I cringe every time someone uses -'a' and -Hom to denote simply "big" =
and
"small".
Example, a crown is not necessarily big.
Qov> That was my point. The existing postal course, created about 15 =
years
ago, not by me, used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing
anything that makes others cringe or twitch.
I can understand how using "there's..." when teaching beginners could =
cause
some confusion. When I study a new language, I want to see a choppy
word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of the sentence
actually means. How do you learn vocabulary from actual usage if =
everyone
keeps throwing in extra words.
But... I have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have never
studied a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were =
given
as choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial form.
Qov> The intended audience is the serious student of Klingon, so I am =
not
overly worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. =
Thank
you.
-- DloraH
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http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks, all,<br><br>No one has said anything I disagree with here. =
=C2=A0I want the course to show examples of indisputably good Klingon, =
and I want to be able to back it up with canon. As I was going over what =
I had written, I thought perhaps that there were Klingonists who would =
not consider <law=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98Iw> or <puS Soj> to be =
well-formed sentences, because of the awkward direct translations. I am =
comfortable with them, but was unable to find a similar sentence in =
canon. <br><br>I think, lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv, that =
you=E2=80=99re the one who taught me to favour sentences of this type. =
:-)=C2=A0 I will soon post a link to a sample formatted lesson, and make =
available the content for the first fifteen or so, for your nitpicking =
pleasure. It=E2=80=99s a painful step, and I may call closure on the =
debate before all the horses have been beaten completely flat, but a =
beginner=E2=80=99s course should present Klingon that any Klingonist =
will accept.<br><br>- Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> lojmIt =
tI'wI' nuv 'utlh [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
April 6, 2014 20:12<br><b>To:</b> tlhInganHol discussion =
group<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for =
translating be-verbs =
with"there"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I agree =
here, though there=E2=80=99s reasoning not stated =
yet.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Okrand didn=E2=80=99t want Klingon to have the verb =
=E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D, so he created mechanisms to work around it. The =
adjectival verbs were one tool. The use of pronouns as verbs was a =
second tool. {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} is a third tool. So, using =
adjectival tools with {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} is doubling up your =
=E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D replacements. It=E2=80=99s not a job that needs =
to be done twice.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You use {tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99} for things like =
=E2=80=9CThere are Klingons speaking in the room.=E2=80=9D =
{pa=E2=80=99Daq jatlh tlhIngan tu=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9COne =
finds Klingons speaking in the room.=E2=80=9D Typical English =
translation uses =E2=80=9Care=E2=80=9D. Klingon uses =
=E2=80=9Cdiscover=E2=80=9D. Same meaning root, but totally different =
word choice, like a different language, instead of like an encoding of =
the original language.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =
=E2=80=98utlh<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Door Repair =
Guy, Retired Honorably<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Apr 6, 2014, at 10:10 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <<a =
href=3D"mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com">elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail=
.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
would certainly prefer to see the Klingon sentences you used as examples =
over the same sentences with a tu'lu' on the end. I would want =
tu'lu' if there were no stative verbs, if the emphasis was on the =
finding (though in that case, -lu' might well not fit), or with stative =
verbs where the meaning with and without "there is" is not =
equivalent.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For example, for <b>law' Iw'</b> "Blood is =
abundant." and "There is a lot of blood." convey the same =
meaning in different styles. For <b>Doq paq</b> "The =
book is red." and "There is a red book." don't have the =
same semantic content.I would not translate <b>Doq paq</b> as =
"There is a red book."<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As for what translation I would use in your examples, =
I wouldn't have a problem with someone else's use of either, but which I =
would use would depend on my intent. If I was trying to translate =
colloquial Klingon to colloquial English, I might well prefer the =
"There is" translations, but if I was trying to convey in =
English the feel of colloquial Klingon, I would choose the more direct =
translations.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For your beginner course, you might want to include a =
couple of examples with both the very direct and more colloquial =
translations, to help give students a sense of the kinds of rephrasing =
they will have to do when they are translating their English ideas into =
Klingon sentences.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be''etlh<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" =
target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>> law' 'Iw. - Blood is abundant. =3D =
There's a lot of blood.<br>> puS Soj. - Food is sparse. =3D There's =
not much food.<br><br>> does anyone feel that 'Iw law' tu'lu' is =
necessary in order to use<br>> that translation. Does anyone prefer =
'Iw law' tu'lu'<br>> for that thought and think puS Soj is =
stilted?<br><br>Are we looking for a /translation/, or a secret decoder =
ring phrase<br>substitution?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Qov> (My stupid mail program doesn't handle =
attributed text properly).<br>Qov> We're looking for a translation =
that, when presented in a dialogue for<br>beginners, will not make any =
of the experts complain that it is poor form,<br>or teaching the =
beginners incorrectly.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>> To me, [law' 'Iw] is about the =
blood being abundant.<br>> ['Iw law' tu'lu'] is about the fact that =
"one discovers" much blood.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Qov> We know that tu'lu' is an idiom indicating the =
presence of something,<br>akin to Spanish hay, French il y a, and =
Russian =D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C. We have much canon to<br>support =
"there is" being a natural translation.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>What is the focus =
in the story being told?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Qov> The parents are complaining about the mess the =
kids are making by<br>fighting with knives in the house, but the real =
focus is use of the stative<br>verb law'. I want to ensure that when I =
write <law' 'Iw> that experienced<br>speakers will see a =
well-formed Klingon sentence and feel that "there is a<br>lot of =
blood" is an acceptable translation.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>> It's the same =
idea: "verb X" which should strictly be translated =
as<br>> "X verbs" becomes "There is X =
verbing."<br><br>This could fall into how we often joke about the =
wordiness of English.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Qov> =
Yes. But I want to present natural-sounding =
translations.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>> I don't expect anyone is going =
to object to such translations, but I<br>> have been twitching for =
fifteen years every time I see ghopHomDu'<br>> translated as =
"small hands" in the postal course, so I want to make<br>> =
sure this doesn't irk anyone.<br><br>I cringe every time someone uses =
-'a' and -Hom to denote simply "big" =
and<br>"small".<br>Example, a crown is not necessarily =
big.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Qov> That was my point. =
The existing postal course, created about 15 years<br>ago, not by me, =
used the suffixes this way. I aim to avoid producing<br>anything that =
makes others cringe or twitch.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>I can understand how using =
"there's..." when teaching beginners could cause<br>some =
confusion. When I study a new language, I want to see a =
choppy<br>word-for-word substitution so I can learn what each part of =
the sentence<br>actually means. How do you learn vocabulary from =
actual usage if everyone<br>keeps throwing in extra words.<br>But... I =
have also seen many ignorant/arrogant people that have never<br>studied =
a language make fun of Klingon because the translations were given<br>as =
choppy word-for-word instead of a more colloquial =
form.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Qov> The intended =
audience is the serious student of Klingon, so I am not<br>overly =
worried about choppiness. I will be sure to make that point. =
Thank<br>you.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>-- =
DloraH<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhi=
ngan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
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target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><b=
r><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br><a =
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href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhi=
ngan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
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