[95492] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] mIl'oD veDDIr SuvwI': 'ay' 15 - pop 'oH ghob'e'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Tue Jan 8 00:24:37 2013
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 21:23:48 -0800
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W8AC9D48C108EABF40AB77AA240@phx.gbl>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
At 19:31 '?????' 1/7/2013, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh wrote:
> > I also
> > couldn't find a way to cram an second instance of
> > bel into the English translation in a way that
> > added anything to the sentence. Does it have a
> > purpose that eludes me in the Klingon?]
>
>Not really. The English rendition I have is "let =
>me see again in joy your joyful face", and I =
>realise now that he doesn't mean "let me see =
>your joyful face in joy again". vIchoH:
>
>belbogh qablIj vIlegh jIbeltaHvIS je jIH 'e' chaw'jaj.
Qap. 'IqtaH bel 'ach pIch Daghajbe' SoH.
> > >DeSDajDaq ghaH tlhap roStevan 'ej paw'chu';
> >
> > Rostevan took him in his arms and they
> > [demonstrated affection in a culturally appropriate manner].
>
>Well put. :)
I found myself unable to guess what that was =
going to be for Georgians, and the Klingon form sounds silly in English.
> > >chaH rurbogh chang'eng'e' not tu'lu'pu' =96
> > >Qorghbogh vay', vay' Qorghlu'pu'bogh joq.
> >
> > A twin like him had never been found--neither
> > someone who took care of him nor who had been cared for.
> > [I wonder if SaH is preferable to Qorgh here. I'm
> > not really getting the point of Qorghlu'pu'bogh as an asset.]
>
>The pronoun is {chaH}: "A pair like THEM had =
>never been found, neither carer nor cared-for".
vIlaDHa'ba'pu'.
>The English is "like unto them have none been, =
>neither upbringer nor upbrought".
And it makes no more sense to me in English, but =
whatever it means I think you've translated it well. Carry on.
>taH:
> > qo' bel ghaH tIna'tIn'e', mIp'a' wellu'bogh ghaH.
> >
> > Tinatin was a pleasant world,. She was a fortune owed.
>
>Hrm. I see how you got "a pleasant world". I'll =
>change it to {qo'vaD bel} or {qo' bel'a'} (the =
>English is "She is the joy of the world, she is treasure and due").
qo' bel'a' brings the meaning to me more =
directly. I don't understand the point of the =
'due' or 'owed' aspect. Are you sure the word =
due in the original has the meaning of something that must be paid?
> > >QIt lengbe'bej loD Qup'e', Dat paSbe'qu' jul =
> rurbogh loD'e', nom lengtaHvIS.
> >
> > The young man by no means travelled slowly. The
> > man who was like the sun was everywhere, not =
> at all late, travelling quickly.
> >
> > [Late for what? I know you're working with an overwrought original.]
>
>Yeah, pretty much. "The sun-faced had not wasted =
>time in his rapid journey". ...Wasted time for =
>what? I'm not sure. I may change this to something using moD.
It's confusing having it be paS when there is no =
event to be late for. moD would help. Consider mImbe' or yevbe', too.
> > >veng loHmeH, qaStaHvIS wej jaj vengDaq ratlhtaH
> > >ghaH chon taghpa', 'ej ghojwI'Daj SermaDInvaD ngupDaj nob 'avtanDIl.
> >
> > He stayed three days to administrate the city
> > before the hunt, and Avtandil gave his cloak to his student Sermadin.
>
>I rely a lot on {ngup} in its metaphorical sense =
>of "authority, power" (or "mantle", if you like).
Not a problem. Whether literal or figurative it's =
clear that he put him in charge.
> > [Okay, now I'm confused. Is this a flashback to
> > Avtandil's role in administration of the royal
> > city before he left, or by virtue of his great
> > beauty and conversational skills he suddenly is
> > put in charge of a border city. Did you mean cho'
> > and not che' earlier? Did I miss something? Or
> > am I just failing to grasp the cultural context
> > that Avtandil simply possesses everything he passes through?]
>
>No, as you worked out in the next paragraph, =
>'avtanDIl already had the role of administering =
>this city. I'm a little loath to change the =
>order of presentation of facts in the story, but =
>from what you say, this might be one that needs =
>cutting out from here and putting earlier in the narrative.
There may be clues in the verb forms that make it =
clearer in English/Georgian and require some more =
explanation in Klingon. I know from my novel =
that one needs more specific scene setting for =
flashbacks or recollections in Klingon. I =
frequently had to make things more linear than I would have in English.
> > >nItebHa' toy'wI'vam'e' 'avtanDIl'e' je luQorghlu'pu';
> >
> > Acting together the servant and Avtandil were cared for.
>
>*Had been* (-pu') cared for - that is, they were =
>brought up together by roStevan. I'll change this, though:
>
>puqpu' chaHtaHvIS toy'wI'vam'e' 'avtanDIl'e' je nItebHa' luQorghlu'pu'.
maj. I didn't remember/realize that roStevan =
raised Avtandil. I though they only came to know =
one another after Avtandil attended the =
coronation. I'll have to go back and re-read.
>(naDev poD mu'tlhegh law')
>
> > >mubechqu'moHpu'bogh be'vo' DaH tIqwIj DuQtaH
> > >bel'a'. tIna'tInvaD muDuQtaH parmaqna';
> >
> > Ecstasy from the woman who has made me suffer so
> > now pierces my heart. True love for Tinatin infuses my soul.
> >
> > >SeparDu'wIj bIrDaq pubchoH tIqwIj 'Iw tuj; wej
> > >bepwIj vISo'pu'bogh vI'anglaHbe'pu'.
> >
> > In my cold [body parts metaphorized as gemstones]
> > the warm blood of my heart comes to a boil. I
> > could not yet reveal the agony I had hidden.]
>
>Um. Which body parts specifically does the =
>metaphor of {SeparDu'} make you think of? I was =
>hoping that the simile of "eyes as hard as =
>Separ" from KGT would make people think of the =
>eyes (Separ is the standard metaphor I'm using =
>throughout for the eyes), but you've just made =
>me realise that there's another entirely =
>different reading possible in this instance, =
>involving the qIvonDu'. You and your dirty mind. =
>:P Is it the qIvonDu' you were thinking of?
I honestly had nothing in mind. I don't think of =
blood boiling in the eyes. I was convinced I was =
missing something, or had perhaps misremembered =
an additional meaning of Separ. I think it's a =
perfectly fair (fair as in may, not as in tIn) =
metaphorical stretch and it's okay for a first =
time reader to have to stretch to look for it.
> > >'ach DaH jItulchoHta' 'e' mura' be'vetlh, vaj jIbelchoH 'e' Dalegh.
> >
> > But now I have taken hope again and that woman
> > commanded me, thus you see me become pleased.
>
>'e', not 'ej: "But now that woman has commanded =
>that I take hope [again]". I cheated a bit with =
>the prefix trick on a verb that governs 'e', =
>which I don't know whether it's possible.
Ah, that would be why I read it as 'ej. I don't =
know why I like that much less than other prefix =
tricks, but I guess I can't say it's wrong. It's =
easily written as mura'mo' be'vetlh ... or =
mura'meH be'vetlh, jatlhpu' <yItulchoH>.
> > > loDnalwI' Damoj SoH neH vIneH, latlh
> > > vIneHbe'qu'; tIqwIjDaq lav pochbogh Sor'a' 'oH SanwIj'e'.=9B
> >
> > I want only you to become my husband. I want no
> > other. My fate is a bush a great tree plants in
> > my heart. [Or possibly a great tree that planted
> > a bush in my heart. Trees planting bushes confuse me]>
>
>It's another one of the metaphors that runs =
>throughout the whole bom. You might remember =
>that early on, 'avtanDIl is compared to a tree =
>(=ABwoch; Sor rur=BB), and in many places through =
>the original poem he is simply referred to as =
>"the tree", "the cypress-formed", and such. The =
>shrub is similarly a metaphor for love here =
>("plant the violet of hope in my heart, strew =
>roses", etc.) (though I've only just realised =
>the coincidence that {lav} "shrub" and English =
>"love" are homophones - that wasn't =
>intentional). The English version of this line =
>is literally "a planted tree [i.e. Avtandil] =
>falls to my lot", but I deliberately didn't =
>resolve the {-bogh} clause in the Klingon so =
>that either reading (or both) is possible: her =
>fate could be either the love that the man =
>plants, or alternately, the man who plants the =
>love. (But I'm not deliberately trying to =
>confuse, I swear! The metaphor in this poem is just really, really dense.)
It's fine. I don't think it's the Klingon here =
that confuses me. I hope there will be lots of =
footnotes saying things like, "i.e. Avtandil". I =
might have followed it better without the six month gap in reading, too.
-Qov =
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