[94408] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] mIl'oD veDDIr SuvwI': 7 - Dujeychugh jagh nIv,
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh)
Thu Aug 16 01:16:43 2012
From: Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 15:16:25 +1000
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20120815102349.04421bc8@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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jIghItlhpu'=2C jIjatlh:
> Warnings: Killing of animals=2C and some blood.
mujang Qov=2C jatlh:
> wej yap'a' HoHchaj?
tlhInganvaD=2C ghaytan not yap.
jIH:
> Hatlh luvegh chaH lIghtaHvIS=2C chaH tlhopDaq=20
> Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH chaH lIghtaHvIS.
Qov:
> I'm having trouble liking this as a sentence. The=20
> action of the sentence takes place in the area in=20
> front of them=2C but in that location they are=20
> chasing the animals. I think you're trying to use=20
> chaJ tlhopDaq to modify just the animals. <chaH=20
> tlhop Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH> would work better for me.
Makes sense. vIlaj.
jIH:
> HoHtaH chaH 'ej Qaw'taH chaH=2C Qunpu' vaqtaH=20
> chaH=2C yotlh yav lunguvmoH 'ej Ha'DIbaH 'Iwmo'=20
> luDoqqu'moH chaH. maq 'avtanDIl lubejtaHbogh=20
> nuvpu'=2C jatlh: =ABQI'tu' SuvwI'na' ghaHchu'!=BB
Qov:
> vI' tobmeH Hujbej mIwvetlh.
bIlughchu'! tobmeH=2C chaq vIHtaHbogh ray' maSlu'.
taH:
> toy'wI''a'pu' HoHbe' 'e' vItlho' neH.
Don't be silly - slaves aren't real people! </cynic>
jIH:
> yotlhvetlh Hoch luvegh chaH 'ej Ha'DIbaHmey=20
> tlha'lI'. yotlh Dop HopDaq bIQtIqHom lutu'=3B=20
> bIQtIqHom HeH Sum luvel naghmey=3B HeH Hop So'=20
> ngem[1]. tagha' ngemDaq luHaw' Ha'DIbaH=3B pa'=20
> tlha'laHbe' 'avtanDIl Sargh roStevan Sargh je.
Qov:
> vaQqu'law' ngemvetlh.
Now full of lions and tigers and bears=2C (oh my) no less.
jIQIjpu'=2C jIjatlh:
> [1] This descriptive bit's awkward and I may=20
> rewrite it to make it flow better. The source=20
> text is disjointed here=2C but I'm not as=20
> concerned with remaining super-faithful to the=20
> source as I am about spinning a coherent yarn.
Qov:
> I didn't find it disjointed. There's a stream at=20
> the end of the field with rocks on the near side=20
> and impenetrable-by-horses forest on the far=20
> side. Don't know where else you'd put that information.
It's more that it comes out of nowhere and goes back into irrelevance very =
quickly. HeH Hop So' ngem is totally my own addition=3B the original text d=
oesn't have anything about it and simply says (paraphrasing) "yeah=2C there=
was a stream at the far side of the plain=2C and rocks at the edge of the =
stream. The animals escaped into the forest..." Er=2C sorry - what forest=
=2C and what about the stream?
jIH:
> toDuj ta'chaj chavta'DI' 'avtanDIl roStevan je=2C
Qov:
> toDuj? Qobchugh Ha'DIbaHmey HoHpu'bogh=2C vaj=20
> toy'wI'pu' toDuj law' law' lIghwI'pu' toDuj law' puS.
lughchu'! I may change this to vI'=2C simply because it makes more sense (a=
nd also doesn't make 'avtanDIl and roStevan out to be such self-congratulat=
ory wankers).
jIH:
> Doy'choHpu'=2C 'ach jeQtaH chaH! jatlhchuq Hoch=20
> cha' =ABjIQapta' jIH'e'!=BB Quchqu'taH chaH 'ej=20
> qIDchuq=2C 'utlh toy'wI'pu' loStaHvIS.
Qov:
> tagh wo'mey 'ej luj wo'mey 'ach not choHpu' loDpu'.
I think you may have given me a title for a future chapter.
jIH:
> tugh pawpu' paSbogh toy'wI'pu'=2C 'ej cholDI'=2C=20
> jatlh 'utlh: =AByIvIt=3B 'etlhmaj tIbochmoHQo'.=BB
Qov:
> ghIch vImaStaH.
meqlIj vIyajchu'. chaq vIchoH=2C chaq vIchoHQo'. wej jIwuqpu'.
(poD latlh)
jIH:
> 'ach yav neH luqIppu'bogh chonnaQmeylIj law''e' DIyIrnISpu'neS.=BB
Qov:
> DIyImISpu'neS? wot yImIS vISovbe'.
yImIS'eghmoHQo'. (Sorry=2C awful joke.) {...yIrnIS...} 'oH: yay 'It ray nay=
'It Say. DaleghHa'law'pu' neH.
jIH:
> 'e' QoyDI' 'utlh=2C QeHbe'qu'=2C SaHbe'law'=3B tlhoS Quj QapwI' neH maqlu=
'law'.
Qov:
> Quj QapwI' ghaHbej. chay' pIm?
The original Georgian says he seemed not to be worried=2C as though it was =
the winner of a game of backgammon that had been announced. (I suspect I ma=
y have misplaced neH here=2C which wouldn't have helped.) Does tlhoS qa'vaQ=
Quj QapwI' maqlu'law'pu' neH "it almost seemed that someone had merely ann=
ounced the winner of a qa'vak game" work better for you?
=20
jIH:
> Sormey bIng QIbDaq leSmeH pa' ba' chaH cha'=2C
Qov:
> Why not <leSmeH chaH cha'=2C Sormey bIng QIbDaq=20
> ba'choH> or <Sormey bIng QIbDaq leHmeH ba'choH=20
> chaH cha'> . I fully understand the desire to add=20
> some variety to sentence structure=2C but I'm=20
> starting to read about a resting chamber under=20
> some trees=2C then I have to back up and .. okay I=20
> can see what's going on here. "They sat in order=20
> to rest in the shadow under the trees." The way=20
> it's structured=2C the sitting is done to=20
> accomplish resting under the trees. I would be=20
> more comfortable were the sitting done under the=20
> trees=2C in order to rest=2C and were it not possible=20
> to misread it as <leSmeH pa'> Also isn't it the=20
> shadow of the trees=2C rather than the shadow of=20
> the trees area underneath?
I think "the shadows of the area underneath the tree" - not meaning that th=
e area underneath throws the shadows=2C merely that the shadows are associa=
ted with the area - is a better gloss to show why I think it works=2C but y=
ou've rephrased it well with {QIbDaq leSmeH Sormey bIngDaq ba'choH chaH}. v=
Ilo'.
> I'm not sure about the legitimacy of chaH cha'=2C but it doesn't confuse =
me.
I'm not hugely sure about it either=2C but it seems the only logical way to=
talk about "we two" or "they two"=2C as an apposition like DuraS be'nI'pu'=
be'etor lurSa' je "the Duras sisters B'Etor and Lursa". It also avoids ug=
ly agreement clashes like *{Hoch Satlho'} and *{maba' cha'}.
jIH:
> qIDtaHvIS 'ej QuchtaHvIS. chaH retlhDaq ghom=20
> wa'maH cha' toy'wI'=2C yoHwI' matlhwI' je=3B ghIq=20
> toy'wI'pu' retlhDaq ghom negh law'qu' 'ej Dech=2C=20
> ngem HeHDaq ngechHommey=2C bIQtIqHommey je bejtaHvIS.
Qov:
> Ha'DibaHmeyvetlh lommey boSnIS vay' ngImchoHpa'.
matlhqu' toy'wI''a'pu'! boS chaH net pIHba'. Feudalism=2C eh?
QeS
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
jIghItlhpu'=2C jIjatlh:<br>>=3B Warnings: Killing of animals=2C and some =
blood.<br><div><br>mujang Qov=2C jatlh:<br>>=3B wej yap'a' HoHchaj?<br><b=
r>tlhInganvaD=2C ghaytan not yap.<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B Hatlh luvegh chaH l=
IghtaHvIS=2C chaH tlhopDaq <br>>=3B Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH chaH lIghtaHvIS.=
<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B I'm having trouble liking this as a sentence. The <b=
r>>=3B action of the sentence takes place in the area in <br>>=3B front=
of them=2C but in that location they are <br>>=3B chasing the animals. I=
think you're trying to use <br>>=3B chaJ tlhopDaq to modify just the ani=
mals. <=3BchaH <br>>=3B tlhop Ha'DIbaHmey tlha'taH>=3B would work bet=
ter for me.<br><br>Makes sense. vIlaj.<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B HoHtaH chaH 'e=
j Qaw'taH chaH=2C Qunpu' vaqtaH <br>>=3B chaH=2C yotlh yav lunguvmoH 'ej =
Ha'DIbaH 'Iwmo' <br>>=3B luDoqqu'moH chaH. maq 'avtanDIl lubejtaHbogh <br=
>>=3B nuvpu'=2C jatlh: =ABQI'tu' SuvwI'na' ghaHchu'!=BB<br><br>Qov:<br>&g=
t=3B vI' tobmeH Hujbej mIwvetlh.<br><br>bIlughchu'! tobmeH=2C chaq vIHtaHbo=
gh ray' maSlu'.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B toy'wI''a'pu' HoHbe' 'e' vItlho' neH.=
<br><br>Don't be silly - slaves aren't real people! <=3B/cynic>=3B<br><=
br>jIH:<br>>=3B yotlhvetlh Hoch luvegh chaH 'ej Ha'DIbaHmey <br>>=3B tl=
ha'lI'. yotlh Dop HopDaq bIQtIqHom lutu'=3B <br>>=3B bIQtIqHom HeH Sum lu=
vel naghmey=3B HeH Hop So' <br>>=3B ngem[1]. tagha' ngemDaq luHaw' Ha'DIb=
aH=3B pa' <br>>=3B tlha'laHbe' 'avtanDIl Sargh roStevan Sargh je.<br><br>=
Qov:<br>>=3B vaQqu'law' ngemvetlh.<br><br>Now full of lions and tigers an=
d bears=2C (oh my) no less.<br><br>jIQIjpu'=2C jIjatlh:<br>>=3B [1] This =
descriptive bit's awkward and I may <br>>=3B rewrite it to make it flow b=
etter. The source <br>>=3B text is disjointed here=2C but I'm not as <br>=
>=3B concerned with remaining super-faithful to the <br>>=3B source as =
I am about spinning a coherent yarn.<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B I didn't find it=
disjointed. There's a stream at <br>>=3B the end of the field with rocks=
on the near side <br>>=3B and impenetrable-by-horses forest on the far <=
br>>=3B side. Don't know where else you'd put that information.<br><br>It=
's more that it comes out of nowhere and goes back into irrelevance very qu=
ickly. HeH Hop So' ngem is totally my own addition=3B the original text doe=
sn't have anything about it and simply says (paraphrasing) "yeah=2C there w=
as a stream at the far side of the plain=2C and rocks at the edge of the st=
ream. The animals escaped into the forest..." Er=2C sorry - what forest=2C =
and what about the stream?<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B toDuj ta'chaj chavta'DI' '=
avtanDIl roStevan je=2C<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B toDuj? Qobchugh Ha'DIbaHmey =
HoHpu'bogh=2C vaj <br>>=3B toy'wI'pu' toDuj law' law' lIghwI'pu' toDuj la=
w' puS.<br><br>lughchu'! I may change this to vI'=2C simply because it make=
s more sense (and also doesn't make 'avtanDIl and roStevan out to be such s=
elf-congratulatory wankers).<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B Doy'choHpu'=2C 'ach jeQt=
aH chaH! jatlhchuq Hoch <br>>=3B cha' =ABjIQapta' jIH'e'!=BB Quchqu'taH c=
haH 'ej <br>>=3B qIDchuq=2C 'utlh toy'wI'pu' loStaHvIS.<br><br>Qov:<br>&g=
t=3B tagh wo'mey 'ej luj wo'mey 'ach not choHpu' loDpu'.<br><br>I think you=
may have given me a title for a future chapter.<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B tugh=
pawpu' paSbogh toy'wI'pu'=2C 'ej cholDI'=2C <br>>=3B jatlh 'utlh: =AByIv=
It=3B 'etlhmaj tIbochmoHQo'.=BB<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B ghIch vImaStaH.<br><b=
r>meqlIj vIyajchu'. chaq vIchoH=2C chaq vIchoHQo'. wej jIwuqpu'.<br><br>(po=
D latlh)<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B 'ach yav neH luqIppu'bogh chonnaQmeylIj law'=
'e' DIyIrnISpu'neS.=BB<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B DIyImISpu'neS? wot yImIS vISov=
be'.<br><br>yImIS'eghmoHQo'. (Sorry=2C awful joke.) {...yIrnIS...} 'oH: yay=
'It ray nay 'It Say. DaleghHa'law'pu' neH.<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B 'e' QoyDI=
' 'utlh=2C QeHbe'qu'=2C SaHbe'law'=3B tlhoS Quj QapwI' neH maqlu'law'.<br><=
br>Qov:<br>>=3B Quj QapwI' ghaHbej. chay' pIm?<br><br>The original Georgi=
an says he seemed not to be worried=2C as though it was the winner of a gam=
e of backgammon that had been announced. (I suspect I may have misplaced ne=
H here=2C which wouldn't have helped.) Does tlhoS qa'vaQ Quj QapwI' maqlu'l=
aw'pu' neH "it almost seemed that someone had merely announced the winner o=
f a qa'vak game" work better for you?<br> =3B<br>jIH:<br>>=3B Sormey =
bIng QIbDaq leSmeH pa' ba' chaH cha'=2C<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B Why not <=
=3BleSmeH chaH cha'=2C Sormey bIng QIbDaq <br>>=3B ba'choH>=3B or <=
=3BSormey bIng QIbDaq leHmeH ba'choH <br>>=3B chaH cha'>=3B . I fully u=
nderstand the desire to add <br>>=3B some variety to sentence structure=
=2C but I'm <br>>=3B starting to read about a resting chamber under <br>&=
gt=3B some trees=2C then I have to back up and .. okay I <br>>=3B can se=
e what's going on here. "They sat in order <br>>=3B to rest in the shadow=
under the trees." The way <br>>=3B it's structured=2C the sitting is d=
one to <br>>=3B accomplish resting under the trees. I would be <br>>=3B=
more comfortable were the sitting done under the <br>>=3B trees=2C in or=
der to rest=2C and were it not possible <br>>=3B to misread it as <=3Bl=
eSmeH pa'>=3B Also isn't it the <br>>=3B shadow of the trees=2C rather=
than the shadow of <br>>=3B the trees area underneath?<br><br>I think "t=
he shadows of the area underneath the tree" - not meaning that the area und=
erneath throws the shadows=2C merely that the shadows are associated with t=
he area - is a better gloss to show why I think it works=2C but you've reph=
rased it well with {QIbDaq leSmeH Sormey bIngDaq ba'choH chaH}. vIlo'.<br><=
br>>=3B I'm not sure about the legitimacy of chaH cha'=2C but it doesn't =
confuse me.<br><br>I'm not hugely sure about it either=2C but it seems the =
only logical way to talk about "we two" or "they two"=2C as an apposition l=
ike DuraS be'nI'pu' be'etor lurSa' je "the Duras sisters B'Etor and Lursa"=
. It also avoids ugly agreement clashes like *{Hoch Satlho'} and *{maba' ch=
a'}.<br><br>jIH:<br>>=3B qIDtaHvIS 'ej QuchtaHvIS. chaH retlhDaq ghom <br=
>>=3B wa'maH cha' toy'wI'=2C yoHwI' matlhwI' je=3B ghIq <br>>=3B toy'wI=
'pu' retlhDaq ghom negh law'qu' 'ej Dech=2C <br>>=3B ngem HeHDaq ngechHom=
mey=2C bIQtIqHommey je bejtaHvIS.<br><br>Qov:<br>>=3B Ha'DibaHmeyvetlh lo=
mmey boSnIS vay' ngImchoHpa'.<br><br>matlhqu' toy'wI''a'pu'! boS chaH net p=
IHba'. Feudalism=2C eh?<br><br>QeS<br></div> </div></body>
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