[91997] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] qungmey bommey je
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Wiechu)
Thu Feb 2 12:36:59 2012
In-Reply-To: <4F2AC6E7.1070202@trimboli.name>
From: Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 18:36:14 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I think both of you are by mistake using qoH instead of joH for lord. As I
don't know the original version I thought it was supposed to be foolish
husband. However doesn't {joH loDnal} mean "lord's husband" ?
2012/2/2 David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
> On 2/1/2012 7:23 AM, Gaerfindel wrote:
>
>> Took me several hours to translate this, recasting some as I went, but I
>> think I got the gist. Thanks to matlh for a particular vocabulary word!
>>
>
> I'll offer some thoughts, but I'm not prepared to offer my own translatio=
n
> right now.
>
>
> =91unDaq =91oH qung, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>>
>
> A better transliteration of Liza would be {laySa}. {ay} sounds like the
> word "aye," which is the sound of "i" in "Liza." You might pronounce it
> {lay'Sa} since a syllable with a glottal stop tends to carry the stress,
> while the final syllable in a noun without glottal stops tends to be the
> syllable with the stress.
>
> Perhaps you're making use of poetic license, but grammatically the first
> sentence should be {'unDaq 'oH qung'e'} "the hole is in the pot."
>
> I don't think {be'naloywI'} is a good match for "dear." It basically mean=
s
> "my wifey-poo," which is far too saccharine for this song, which is just
> saying "dear Liza, dear Liza."
>
> Klingons would probably ignore the "dear" part of the song, and just name
> lay'Sa.
>
>
> =91unDaq oH qung, lIySa=92
>> be=92nalwI=92, =91oH qung
>>
>> qung yItI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal
>> HenrI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal
>>
>
> {qoH'a' loDnal} doesn't really make sense. "My great lord husband"? See m=
y
> comments on {be'naloywI'}, above.
>
> I'd transliterate Henry as {HenrIy}. There is no glottal stop in the name=
.
>
>
> qung yItI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal
>> HenrI=92 yItI=92qu=92!
>>
>> chay=92 qung vItI=92, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> chay=92 qung vItI=92, lIySa=92
>> benaloywI=92, chay=92?
>>
>> Sor nItlh yIlo=92, HenrI=92
>> qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92
>> Sor nItlh yIlo=92, HenrI=92
>> Sor nItlh yIlo=92qu=92!
>>
>> =91ach Sor nItlh tIqHa=92qu=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> =91ach Sor nItlh tIqHa=92qu=92
>> Sor nItlh tIqHa=92qu=92!
>>
>
> That's a lot of twisting to get extra syllables! A more literal
> translation would be {'ach tlhoy tIn Sor nItlh}.
>
>
> yIpe=92nIS qoH=92a=92 loDnal
>> HenrI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal
>> yIpe=92nIS qoH=92a=92 loDnal
>> yIpe=92nIS!
>>
>
> For extra syllables, consider using {vaj} at the beginning of everything
> lay'Sa sings.
>
>
> chay=92 nItlh vIpe=92, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> chay=92 nItlh vIpe=92, lIySa=92
>> chay=92 Sor nItlh vIpe=92?
>>
>> taj yIlo=92nIS, HenrI=92
>> qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92
>> taj yIlo=92nIS, HenrI=92
>> taj yIlo=92nISqu=92!
>>
>
> Using {-nIS} on an imperative verb is commanding the addressee to need
> something. "Need to cut the knife!"
>
> Also, I think you're adding {-qu'} to things just to add syllables. Best
> to find something that means what you want, rather than to intensify
> syllables just to add length to lines.
>
> Literally, not considering meter, the line should read {taj yIlo', HenrIy=
}
> "Use a knife, Henry."
>
>
> =91ach jejHa=92qu=92, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> =91ach jejHa=92qu=92, lIySa=92
>> =91ach jejHa=92qu=92 taj
>>
>
> While {tlhoy jejHa'} means "too dull (having been made unsharp)," I kind
> of like {jejHa'qu'} to emphasize the fact that the sharpness of the knife
> has been undone. The {-qu'} emphasizes the {-Ha'}: "UNsharp."
>
>
> taj yIjejmoH HenrI=92
>> qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92
>> taj yIjejmoH HenrI=92
>> DaH taj yIjejmoH!
>>
>> chay=92 taj vIjej, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> chay=92 taj vIjej, lIySa=92
>> chay=92 tajvam vIjej?
>>
>
> vIjejmoH
>
>
> jejmeH nagh let yIlo=92
>> qoH=92a=92 loDnal, HenrI=92
>> jejmeH nagh let yIlo=92
>> nagh let yIlo=92nIS!
>>
>
> If we're thinking of the original, Liza simply says, "With a stone, dear
> Henry." She doesn't say "hard sharpening stone." You're probably looking
> for extra syllables again. Without regard for meter, a literal translatio=
n
> would be {nagh yIlo'} "use a stone."
>
>
> =91ach QaDqu=92 nagh, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> =91ach QaDqu=92 nagh, lIySa=92
>> QaDqu=92jejmeH nagh
>>
>
> I'd prefer {tlhoy QaD nagh} "the stone is too dry."
>
>
> nagh yIyIQmoH, HenrI=92
>> qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92
>> nagh yIyIQmoH, HenrI=92
>> qoH=92a=92 yIyIQmoH!
>>
>> chay=92 yIQ vIqeng, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> chay=92 yIQ vIqeng, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92, chay=92?
>>
>> =91unDaq yIqeng, HenrI=92
>> qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92
>> =91unDaq yIqeng, HenrI=92
>> =91unDaq yIQ yIqeng!
>>
>> =91ach=85=92unDaq =91oH qung, lIySa=92
>> be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92
>> =91unDaq =91oH qung, lIySa=92
>> be=92nalwI=92, =91oH qung=85
>>
>
> A good effort. If you take any of my suggestions, remember that part of
> the song is repeating the same form of sentences every other verse. Don't
> switch between using adverbials here and not using them there. HenrIy
> should sing in the same form throughout, and Lay'Sa should do the same wi=
th
> her own form.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom=
.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http://=
stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>
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I think both of you are by mistake using qoH instead of joH for lord. As I =
don't know the original version I thought it was supposed to be foolish=
husband. However doesn't {joH loDnal} mean "lord's husband&qu=
ot; ?<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/2/2 David Trimboli <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name">david@trimboli.name</a>></span>=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On 2/1/2012 7:23 AM, Gaerfindel wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Took me several hours to translate this, recasting some as I went, but I<br=
>
think I got the gist. Thanks to matlh for a particular vocabulary word!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I'll offer some thoughts, but I'm not prepared to offer my own tran=
slation right now.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=91unDaq =91oH qung, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
A better transliteration of Liza would be {laySa}. {ay} sounds like the wor=
d "aye," which is the sound of "i" in "Liza."=
You might pronounce it {lay'Sa} since a syllable with a glottal stop t=
ends to carry the stress, while the final syllable in a noun without glotta=
l stops tends to be the syllable with the stress.<br>
<br>
Perhaps you're making use of poetic license, but grammatically the firs=
t sentence should be {'unDaq 'oH qung'e'} "the hole is=
in the pot."<br>
<br>
I don't think {be'naloywI'} is a good match for "dear.&quo=
t; It basically means "my wifey-poo," which is far too saccharine=
for this song, which is just saying "dear Liza, dear Liza."<br>
<br>
Klingons would probably ignore the "dear" part of the song, and j=
ust name lay'Sa.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=91unDaq oH qung, lIySa=92<br>
be=92nalwI=92, =91oH qung<br>
<br>
qung yItI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal<br>
HenrI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
{qoH'a' loDnal} doesn't really make sense. "My great lord =
husband"? See my comments on {be'naloywI'}, above.<br>
<br>
I'd transliterate Henry as {HenrIy}. There is no glottal stop in the na=
me.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
qung yItI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal<br>
HenrI=92 yItI=92qu=92!<br>
<br>
chay=92 qung vItI=92, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
chay=92 qung vItI=92, lIySa=92<br>
benaloywI=92, chay=92?<br>
<br>
Sor nItlh yIlo=92, HenrI=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92<br>
Sor nItlh yIlo=92, HenrI=92<br>
Sor nItlh yIlo=92qu=92!<br>
<br>
=91ach Sor nItlh tIqHa=92qu=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
=91ach Sor nItlh tIqHa=92qu=92<br>
Sor nItlh tIqHa=92qu=92!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
That's a lot of twisting to get extra syllables! A more literal transla=
tion would be {'ach tlhoy tIn Sor nItlh}.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
yIpe=92nIS qoH=92a=92 loDnal<br>
HenrI=92 qoH=92a=92 loDnal<br>
yIpe=92nIS qoH=92a=92 loDnal<br>
yIpe=92nIS!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
For extra syllables, consider using {vaj} at the beginning of everything la=
y'Sa sings.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
chay=92 nItlh vIpe=92, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
chay=92 nItlh vIpe=92, lIySa=92<br>
chay=92 Sor nItlh vIpe=92?<br>
<br>
taj yIlo=92nIS, HenrI=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92<br>
taj yIlo=92nIS, HenrI=92<br>
taj yIlo=92nISqu=92!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Using {-nIS} on an imperative verb is commanding the addressee to need some=
thing. "Need to cut the knife!"<br>
<br>
Also, I think you're adding {-qu'} to things just to add syllables.=
Best to find something that means what you want, rather than to intensify =
syllables just to add length to lines.<br>
<br>
Literally, not considering meter, the line should read {taj yIlo', Henr=
Iy} "Use a knife, Henry."<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=91ach jejHa=92qu=92, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
=91ach jejHa=92qu=92, lIySa=92<br>
=91ach jejHa=92qu=92 taj<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
While {tlhoy jejHa'} means "too dull (having been made unsharp),&q=
uot; I kind of like {jejHa'qu'} to emphasize the fact that the shar=
pness of the knife has been undone. The {-qu'} emphasizes the {-Ha'=
}: "UNsharp."<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
taj yIjejmoH HenrI=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92<br>
taj yIjejmoH HenrI=92<br>
DaH taj yIjejmoH!<br>
<br>
chay=92 taj vIjej, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
chay=92 taj vIjej, lIySa=92<br>
chay=92 tajvam vIjej?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
vIjejmoH<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
jejmeH nagh let yIlo=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 loDnal, HenrI=92<br>
jejmeH nagh let yIlo=92<br>
nagh let yIlo=92nIS!<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
If we're thinking of the original, Liza simply says, "With a stone=
, dear Henry." She doesn't say "hard sharpening stone." =
You're probably looking for extra syllables again. Without regard for m=
eter, a literal translation would be {nagh yIlo'} "use a stone.&qu=
ot;<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=91ach QaDqu=92 nagh, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
=91ach QaDqu=92 nagh, lIySa=92<br>
QaDqu=92jejmeH nagh<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I'd prefer {tlhoy QaD nagh} "the stone is too dry."<div class=
=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
nagh yIyIQmoH, HenrI=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92<br>
nagh yIyIQmoH, HenrI=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 yIyIQmoH!<br>
<br>
chay=92 yIQ vIqeng, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
chay=92 yIQ vIqeng, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92, chay=92?<br>
<br>
=91unDaq yIqeng, HenrI=92<br>
qoH=92a=92 loDnal HenrI=92<br>
=91unDaq yIqeng, HenrI=92<br>
=91unDaq yIQ yIqeng!<br>
<br>
=91ach=85=92unDaq =91oH qung, lIySa=92<br>
be=92naloywI=92 lIySa=92<br>
=91unDaq =91oH qung, lIySa=92<br>
be=92nalwI=92, =91oH qung=85<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
A good effort. If you take any of my suggestions, remember that part of the=
song is repeating the same form of sentences every other verse. Don't =
switch between using adverbials here and not using them there. HenrIy shoul=
d sing in the same form throughout, and Lay'Sa should do the same with =
her own form.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a></font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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