[83870] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Du' naH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Mon Jan 7 14:02:11 2008
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:59:30 -0600
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
In-Reply-To: <799C4FC2-A898-4DD3-B8CE-506EBD748F17@embarqmail.com>
<E1JBQi7-0007SL-6k@chain.digitalkingdom.org>
<3a6c71460801062206j65623738ke19748324b5d09b5@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Doq wrote:
>So, would others consider {Du' naH} to be an uncountable noun? By
>that, I mean that there is no plural form -- that like {Duran lung
>DIr}, you would never put a plural suffix on it.
Jonathan Webley wrote:
>I think "produce" in English is a mass noun, hence uncountable. It has no
>plural and refers collectively to some number of fruit and vegetables.
>
>"Fruit" is like "fish" - countable and uncountable. Like {ghotI'} I think
>{naH} can take a plural.
>
>I would guess that {Du' naH} is a mass noun.
>
>However, perhaps Klingon is different to English. If we are comparing
>European states we would say "European economies". Because "produce" is
>uncountable we have to say "produce of European states". Perhaps the Klingon
>translation of the latter would use a plural form of {Du' naH}, something
>like "European produces", implying that we are taking about the total
>"produce" of individual states?
naHQun:
>Du' naH~fruit(s)/vegetable(s) of the/a farm. As opposed to naH tlhab
>"free-range" fruit.
>
>At first (as influenced by it's English gloss), I was veering away
>from pluralizing it; but after thinking about it in Klingon-I've
>decided that I would say Du' naHmey, if the situation called for it.
>Likewise, I'd also say naHmey tlhab.
>
>Du' naHmeyvam vIwIv. (while sweeping my hand over the mentioned
>fruits--possibly in some sort of barrell or crate)
{naH} in canon:
naH poch
He/she plants fruit or vegetables. KGT
The real question is whether {naH} "fruit, vegetable" is a mass noun or a
count noun. Even then, that may not mean that a plural with {-mey} is
impossible. Although "fish", "fruit" and "water" are mass nouns in
English, plural forms do exist - usually with a specialized meaning. As
has been mentioned, "fishes" and "fruits" refer to diverse kinds of fish
and fruit (e.g. "Fishes of the Pacific", "fruits of the Amazon Rain
Forest") and "waters" exists in poetry or ritual speech (e.g. "By the
waters of Babylon", "the waters of the deep", etc.).
Here's what I have Okrand saying about {naH}:
KGT p.89: Any part of any plant that is eaten may be termed naH, usually
translated "fruit" or "vegetable". Any nut (a fruit with a hard shell) is
called a {naHlet} (literally, "hard fruit"), a thistle (a flower with
dangerously sharp leaves) is a {naHjej} (literally, "sharp fruit"), a bean
(which, in this case, may mean the pod or the seed or seeds in it or both)
is a {qurgh}, and a root or tuber is a {'oQqar}. Otherwise there are no
known generic names for different types of {naH} (though there are terms
for specific plants and parts of a plant). A plant's sap or juice is called
{vIychorgh}. The outer covering of a fruit or vegetable ({yub} "husk, rind,
peel") is always consumed, except in the case of the {naHlet yub} ("nut
shell")... Fruit or vegetables that come from a farm ({Du'}) are called
either {naH} alone or {Du' naH} ("farm fruit or vegetable" or "produce");
the wild variety is termed {naH tlhab} (literally, "free fruit or
vegetable"). The verb {yob} ("harvest") is used to refer to gathering up
plants or plant parts, whether from a field ({yotlh}) that has been sown or
out in the wild. The verb meaning "farm" is {wIj}; that meaning "plant"
(referring to vegetation of any kind) is {poch}. One may say ... {naH poch}
("He/she plants fruit or vegetables"), referring to the ultimate use of the
plant as a food source.
KGT p. 85: A vegetable or fruit that is {baQ} ("fresh, just picked, just
fallen off the plant"), on the other hand, is not as favored as one that is
{DeH} ("ripe", though "overripe" might be closer to the mark) or even {QaD}
("dry, dried out").
KGT p.92: Finally, the way to prepare a common dish called {qompogh} is to
mash ({tap}) a mixture of various types of {naH} (fruit, vegetable), with
or without some animal matter, into a rather lumpy paste and then to let it
{rogh} (ferment).
KGT p.93: It is also not unusual to {HaH} (marinate) or {roghmoH}
(ferment) various sorts of {naH} (fruit, vegetable).
KGT p.110: The phrase "vegetable days" (or "fruit days", since {naH} means
both "vegetable" and "fruit") refers to one's youth, a time before reaching
an age considered appropriate for marriage. The imagery is of a plant,
rooted but growing, just as a Klingon youth still needs grounding (the
home) for nourishment (teaching) in order to grow spiritually. The phrase
is used in sentences such as {naH jajmeywIj betleH vIyanbe'} ("In my
vegetable days, I did not wield a bat'leth"). This expression was actually
first heard in a speech in the original Klingon version of Shakespeare's
"{'antonI' tlhI'yopatra' je}" in which the heroine refers to her own youth
in this way. In the popular Federation Standard version of this play, {naH}
is translated as "salad".
KGT p.63: A knife that is relatively safe, both for user and intended
victim, is the smaller {naH taj} (literally, "vegetable knife" or "fruit
knife", a kind of knife used for training but also for cutting parts off of
growing plants.
KGT p.89: Similarly, they will usually gnaw on the hard pit of some fruits
({naHnagh}--literally, "fruit stone") until it can be chewed and swallowed,
but it is not considered out of place to treat the pit as a shell and spit
out the pieces.
You'll notice that Okrand has never used the plural *{naHmey}. There was
even a note in KCD on {naHlet} "nut(s)" that:
The plural--optional as always--is {naHletmey}, *not* {naHmey let}. (KCD)
charghwI' made, I think, a good observation:
I have come to accept that if you eat it, it is {naH}. If it is a plant
and you don't eat it, it is {tI}. Perhaps {tI} includes {naH} as a subset.
Personally I treat {naH} like {tI} "vegetation" -- which you'll note is
another mass noun.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
