[2789] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: po puv bortaS! (translation)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Wed Jan 26 01:43:06 1994
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
From: Will Martin <whm2m@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu>
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:41:53 EST
On Jan 24, 4:17pm, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Subject: po puv bortaS! (translation)
>
> >From: Will Martin <whm2m@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu>
> >Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 15:17:03 EST
...
> >No. I was using it adjectivally. {bIQtIq vIH} = "moving river" much like
> >{biQtIq bIr} = "cold river".
>
> I saw you were using it adjectivally, and while I did support such things
> before, I was talking to Krankor and...TKD does seem to
> draw a distinction between stative and active verbs, saying that verbs
> which indicate a state can be used as adjectives, not necessarily others.
> ...Even Okrand uses "qetbogh loD" and "vIHtaHbogh bIQ"
> (granted, the last can't be an adjective and keep its -taH, but its meaning
> is pretty much the same as the one here).
> ~mark
Hmmm. Good point. Let me try to get a better grip on this. We have verbs
whose definitions begin with the word "be", like:
{bIr} = "be cold"
That is definitely okay to use as an adjective.
We have intransitive verbs that do not have "be" in their definition:
{ba'} = "sit"
This is definitely not okay to use as an adjective.
{vIH} = "move, be in motion"
I'm not sure we've got a clear case either way. While "move" is
intransitive and not a state of being, "be in motion" sounds pretty "stative"
to me. I look for similar verbs that ride the borderline:
{boch} = "shine, be shiny"
"Shine" is intransitive and not a state of being. "Be shiny" is a state
of being.
{chep} = "prosper, be prosperous"
"Prosper" is intransitive and not a state of being. "Be prosperous" is a
state of being.
{Qagh} = "err, be mistaken, make a mistake"
"Err" and "make a mistake" are intransitive and not a state of being.
"Be mistaken" is a state of being.
{'oy'} = "ache, hurt, be sore"
"Ache" and "hurt" are intransitive and not states of being. "Be sore" is
a state of being.
Fortunately, this is a small list. I manually searched TKD for verbs
with ", be" in their definitions. So, are we willing to say that all of the
following adjectival constructions are illegal?
nagh boch = shiny rock
malja'wI' chep = prosperous businessman
qech Qagh = mistaken idea
volchaH 'oy' = sore shoulder
bIQtIq vIH = river in motion
I think these verbs deserve a little more discussion before we pass
judgement based upon generalizations about Hebrew examples. Klingon was not,
despite suggestions by Dorn, based upon Hebrew. I'm willing to accept that
the above constructions are illegal as a group, but not without a little more
discussion.
The definitions to these verbs were written differently than those of
other verbs in Klingon. They suggest that the verbs can be used both as
states of being and as intransitive verbs not suggesting states of being. My
personal opinion is that they should be considered legitimate adjectives.
If anyone would like to argue that they should not be adjectives, or if
they would like to argue about what makes {vIH} different from the other
verbs in this list, I happily await the challenge. {{{:-))>
(Unfortunately, the equals sign has too few horizontals to represent my
toothy grin...)
-- charghwI'
