[111669] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Translation help
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Fri Oct 20 04:40:45 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:51:51 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmMJwMrinfdy0sb8UCkK_61mdJceOCF_ZHD+9xRc_Q2=kA@mail.gmail.com>
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On 10/19/2017 9:19 AM, De'vID wrote:
>
> “Laying Plans”
>
> chenmoH nabpu’
>
>
> I can't parse this at all. Is {nab} intended to be a noun or verb
> here? What is its relationship to the verb {chenmoH}?
Joseph is not considering the order of a basic Klingon sentence: OBJECT
- VERB - SUBJECT. He's applying suffixes more or less correctly but
putting the words together in English order. *chenmoH*/make;/*nabpu'*
Joseph used the wrong plural suffix here: use *-mey* for things that
don't use language and aren't body parts. *nabmey*/plans./
Putting this together in OVS order, we get *nabmey chenmoH.* BUT! We
haven't conjugated this; right now it says /he/she/it/they make plans./
If that's what you're after, fair enough, but what you're probably
saying is that plans are made and you're not specifying who makes those
plans. For that you need the indefinite subject suffix, *-lu': nabmey
luchenmoHlu'*/plans are made; someone makes plans./
BUT AGAIN! /Make plans/ is a very English way of saying this. I'm not
sure if we can even use *chen* to refer to abstract things taking form.
Why not simplify this? *nablu'*/someone plans./
You see now why translating is harder work than producing original thoughts.
> “1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.”
>
>
> wa’.jatlh Sun’tlhu: <<veSQeD potlhqu’ wo’vaD>>.
>
>
>
> Remember object verb subject. What is the subject of {potlhqu'}? What
> role has {wo'vaD} play here?
Remember also that *'* is a consonant, not punctuation. That *'* in
*Sun'tlhu*'s name isn't pronounceable, unless maybe you happen to hiccup
while saying it.
> “2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or
> to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account
> be neglected.”
>
>
> cha’. yIn Hegh je Soj ‘oH ‘ej QaDqu’ghach lujqu’ghach ghap Dev
> ‘oH. QeD DabuSHa’be’qu’.
>
>
>
> "It is a matter of..." is an English expression. I feel using {Soj}
> follows this a bit too closely. What does it *mean* to say something
> is a matter of life and death? Express that.
I think *yIn Hegh je Soj 'oH* hits it on the nose and is quite good.
This isn't just an English expression; Klingon's idiomatic *Soj*
/matter, concern, affair/ is exactly this.
> I would also suggest to express using verbs the idea you're apparently
> trying to express by using nouns with {-ghach}.
Agreed. You're sticking *-qu'* in there to satisfy the requirement that
a suffix come between the verb and *-ghach*, but you don't really mean them.
Also, *QaD* normally means /be dry;/ the meaning of /be safe/ is slang.
The style of /The Art of War/ is invariably made out to be formal and
dignified, a style not conducive to using slang.
For non-slang alternatives, consider words like *QobHa'ghach* and *Qanlu'.*
> Note that we have a word {taw} for "road".
>
> Is the last sentence intended to be an imperative? Right now, it just
> says "You do *not* ignore this science" (not that you *shouldn't*).
Your last sentence also cuts out a lot of what the original is saying.
If you're going to translate, don't skip parts because they're hard.
You've made a good start. I strongly recommend trying to express
yourself in Klingon before translating the words of others.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/19/2017 9:19 AM, De'vID wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+7zAmMJwMrinfdy0sb8UCkK_61mdJceOCF_ZHD+9xRc_Q2=kA@mail.gmail.com">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span
style="font-style:italic;font-size:11pt">“Laying Plans”</span></p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span
style="font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">chenmoH nabpu’</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can't parse this at all. Is {nab} intended to be a noun or
verb here? What is its relationship to the verb {chenmoH}?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Joseph is not considering the order of a basic Klingon sentence:
OBJECT - VERB - SUBJECT. He's applying suffixes more or less
correctly but putting the words together in English order. <b>chenmoH</b><i>
make;</i><b> nabpu'</b> Joseph used the wrong plural suffix
here: use <b>-mey</b> for things that don't use language and
aren't body parts. <b>nabmey</b><i> plans.</i></p>
<p>Putting this together in OVS order, we get <b>nabmey chenmoH.</b>
BUT! We haven't conjugated this; right now it says <i>he/she/it/they
make plans.</i> If that's what you're after, fair enough, but
what you're probably saying is that plans are made and you're not
specifying who makes those plans. For that you need the indefinite
subject suffix, <b>-lu': nabmey luchenmoHlu'</b><i> plans are
made; someone makes plans.</i></p>
<p>BUT AGAIN! <i>Make plans</i> is a very English way of saying
this. I'm not sure if we can even use <b>chen</b> to refer to
abstract things taking form. Why not simplify this? <b>nablu'</b><i>
someone plans.</i></p>
<p>You see now why translating is harder work than producing
original thoughts.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+7zAmMJwMrinfdy0sb8UCkK_61mdJceOCF_ZHD+9xRc_Q2=kA@mail.gmail.com">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span
style="font-style:italic;font-size:11pt">“1. Sun Tzu
said: The art of war is of vital importance to the
State.”</span></p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.6px"><span
style="font-size:11pt"></span><br>
</p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span
style="font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">wa’.</span><span
style="font-size:11pt"> jatlh Sun’tlhu: <<veSQeD
potlhqu’ wo’vaD>>.</span></p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.4px"><span
style="font-style:italic;font-size:11pt"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Remember object verb subject. What is the subject of
{potlhqu'}? What role has {wo'vaD} play here?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Remember also that <b>'</b> is a consonant, not punctuation.
That <b>'</b> in <b>Sun'tlhu</b>'s name isn't pronounceable,
unless maybe you happen to hiccup while saying it.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+7zAmMJwMrinfdy0sb8UCkK_61mdJceOCF_ZHD+9xRc_Q2=kA@mail.gmail.com">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span
style="font-style:italic;font-size:11pt">“2. It is a
matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to
ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no
account be neglected.”</span></p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.4px"><span
style="font-style:italic;font-size:11pt"></span><br>
</p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span
style="font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">cha’. </span><span
style="font-size:11pt">yIn Hegh je Soj ‘oH ‘ej
QaDqu’ghach lujqu’ghach ghap Dev ‘oH. QeD
DabuSHa’be’qu’.</span></p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.6px"><span
style="font-size:11pt"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"It is a matter of..." is an English expression. I feel using
{Soj} follows this a bit too closely. What does it *mean* to say
something is a matter of life and death? Express that.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I think <b>yIn Hegh je Soj 'oH</b> hits it on the nose and is
quite good. This isn't just an English expression; Klingon's
idiomatic <b>Soj</b> <i>matter, concern, affair</i> is exactly
this.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+7zAmMJwMrinfdy0sb8UCkK_61mdJceOCF_ZHD+9xRc_Q2=kA@mail.gmail.com">
<div> I would also suggest to express using verbs the idea you're
apparently trying to express by using nouns with {-ghach}.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Agreed. You're sticking <b>-qu'</b> in there to satisfy the
requirement that a suffix come between the verb and <b>-ghach</b>,
but you don't really mean them.</p>
<p>Also, <b>QaD</b> normally means <i>be dry;</i> the meaning of <i>be
safe</i> is slang. The style of <i>The Art of War</i> is
invariably made out to be formal and dignified, a style not
conducive to using slang.</p>
<p>For non-slang alternatives, consider words like <b>QobHa'ghach</b>
and <b>Qanlu'.</b><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+7zAmMJwMrinfdy0sb8UCkK_61mdJceOCF_ZHD+9xRc_Q2=kA@mail.gmail.com">
<div>Note that we have a word {taw} for "road". </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is the last sentence intended to be an imperative? Right now,
it just says "You do *not* ignore this science" (not that you
*shouldn't*).</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Your last sentence also cuts out a lot of what the original is
saying. If you're going to translate, don't skip parts because
they're hard.<br>
</p>
<p>You've made a good start. I strongly recommend trying to express
yourself in Klingon before translating the words of others.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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