[111665] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Translation help
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID)
Fri Oct 20 04:05:40 2017
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In-Reply-To: <356d5292-d2c2-6c7c-b786-78c17e0da6ed@trimboli.name>
From: "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 17:37:13 +0200
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
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On 19 October 2017 at 15:51, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 10/19/2017 9:19 AM, De'vID wrote:
>
> =E2=80=9C2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or =
to ruin.
>> Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>> cha=E2=80=99. yIn Hegh je Soj =E2=80=98oH =E2=80=98ej QaDqu=E2=80=99ghac=
h lujqu=E2=80=99ghach ghap Dev =E2=80=98oH. QeD
>> DabuSHa=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99.
>>
>>
>>
> "It is a matter of..." is an English expression. I feel using {Soj}
> follows this a bit too closely. What does it *mean* to say something is a
> matter of life and death? Express that.
>
> I think *yIn Hegh je Soj 'oH* hits it on the nose and is quite good. This
> isn't just an English expression; Klingon's idiomatic *Soj* *matter,
> concern, affair* is exactly this.
>
I think this example illustrates why it's so important to translate from
the original language.
The couplet in Chinese is:
=E6=AD=BB=E7=94=9F=E4=B9=8B=E5=9C=B0=EF=BC=8C=E5=AD=98=E4=BA=A1=E4=B9=8B=E9=
=81=93
life-death-[possessive]-ground
exist-perish-[possessive]-road
"(It is) the ground of life and death, the road to existence and perdition.=
"
First, I expect the translation to preserve the couplet structure of the
original. That is, this pair of sentences should be expressed using a pair
of sentences in Klingon, such that they have identical grammatical
structure and parallel nouns (life/exist, death/perish, ground/road).
Second, the English translation already loses the ground/road parallel of
the original (matter of/road to vs. ground of/road to). A road is something
which sits on the ground, and allows movement on the ground. "Road" also
means "path" (in the abstract sense of a course of action), while "ground"
also means "basis" (something which is a support of or necessary condition
for something else). The phrase "a matter of life and death" is a familiar
English expression (it even has a dictionary entry:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/matter-of-life-and-death--a ). It doesn't
merely mean "the subject under consideration involves life and death", it
means "this is an issue of urgency".
The English translator has decided to be a little loose with the
translation here, and used an English phrase with a built-in meaning
already known to an English-speaking audience, but which isn't a literal
translation of the Chinese. This is fine; it's a matter of aesthetics. But
the Klingon {Soj} is too literal a translation of the English. It says that
life and death is the issue under consideration, but doesn't carry the
sense of urgency of the English, nor the original meaning of the Chinese.
The meaning here isn't merely that war is a topic which concerns life and
death, it's that it is a topic which is of *fundamental* (in the Chinese)
or *urgent* (in the given English translation) importance when dealing with
life and death, and that sense is (in my view) missing in {Soj}.
But anyway, translation requires an understanding of both the source and
target languages, which is a reason why translation isn't a good way to
learn a language.
--=20
De'vID
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 19 October 2017 at 15:51, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><span class=3D"gmail-m_7075857982920836464gmail-=
">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_7075857982920836464gmail-m_5639497549535593025moz=
-cite-prefix">On 10/19/2017 9:19 AM, De'vID wrote:<br>
</div>
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_7075857982920836464gmail-"><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><div><p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-he=
ight:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-style:italic;font-=
size:11pt">=E2=80=9C2. It is a
matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to
ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no
account be neglected.=E2=80=9D</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-=
height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.4px"><span style=3D"fon=
t-style:italic;font-size:11pt"></span><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-=
height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;font=
-size:11pt">cha=E2=80=99. </span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">yIn Hegh je=
Soj =E2=80=98oH =E2=80=98ej
QaDqu=E2=80=99ghach lujqu=E2=80=99ghach ghap Dev =E2=80=98o=
H.=C2=A0 QeD
DabuSHa=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99.</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-=
height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.6px"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"It is a matter of..." is an English expression. I fee=
l using
{Soj} follows this a bit too closely. What does it *mean* to say
something is a matter of life and death? Express that.</div>
</blockquote>
</span><p>I think <b>yIn Hegh je Soj 'oH</b> hits it on the nose an=
d is
quite good. This isn't just an English expression; Klingon's
idiomatic <b>Soj</b> <i>matter, concern, affair</i> is exactly
this.<br>
</p></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra">I think this example illustrates why it's so impo=
rtant to translate from the original language.</div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The couplet in Chinese is:</div>=
=E6=AD=BB=E7=94=9F=E4=B9=8B=E5=9C=B0=EF=BC=8C=E5=AD=98=E4=BA=A1=E4=B9=8B=E9=
=81=93<br clear=3D"all"><div>life-death-[possessive]-ground<br></div><div>e=
xist-perish-[possessive]-road</div><div><br></div><div>"(It is) the gr=
ound of life and death, the road to existence and perdition."</div><di=
v><br></div><div>First, I expect the translation to preserve the couplet st=
ructure of the original. That is, this pair of sentences should be expresse=
d using a pair of sentences in Klingon, such that they have identical gramm=
atical structure and parallel nouns (life/exist, death/perish, ground/road)=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Second, the English translation already loses th=
e ground/road parallel of the original (matter of/road to vs. ground of/roa=
d to). A road is something which sits on the ground, and allows movement on=
the ground. "Road" also means "path" (in the abstract =
sense of a course of action), while "ground" also means "bas=
is" (something which is a support of or necessary condition for someth=
ing else). The phrase "a matter of life and death" is a familiar =
English expression (it even has a dictionary entry:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://=
www.dictionary.com/browse/matter-of-life-and-death--a">http://www.dictionar=
y.com/browse/matter-of-life-and-death--a</a> ). It doesn't merely mean =
"the subject under consideration involves life and death", it mea=
ns "this is an issue of urgency".</div><div><br></div><div>The En=
glish translator has decided to be a little loose with the translation here=
, and used an English phrase with a built-in meaning already known to an En=
glish-speaking audience, but which isn't a literal translation of the C=
hinese. This is fine; it's a matter of aesthetics. But the Klingon {Soj=
} is too literal a translation of the English. It says that life and death =
is the issue under consideration, but doesn't carry the sense of urgenc=
y of the English, nor the original meaning of the Chinese. The meaning here=
isn't merely that war is a topic which concerns life and death, it'=
;s that it is a topic which is of *fundamental* (in the Chinese) or *urgent=
* (in the given English translation) importance when dealing with life and =
death, and that sense is (in my view) missing in {Soj}.</div><div><br></div=
><div>But anyway, translation requires an understanding of both the source =
and target languages, which is a reason why translation isn't a good wa=
y to learn a language.</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail-m_707=
5857982920836464gmail_signature">De'vID</div>
</div></div>
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