[110569] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Is Star Trek: Discovery a new canon category?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Fri Aug 11 11:06:19 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:06:16 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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I see your point.
However, boQwI' is meant to be a helping tool, in order to learn okrandian
klingon, not a star trek klingon guide.
Anyway, the final decision is of course De'vID's..
qunnoq jan puqloD
On 11 Aug 2017 5:55 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> lieven:
>> > Theoretically, if ALL that Qov has translated is just fine,
>> > following the grammar, with no confusion - then why should
>> > we not show it?
>>
>> In that case I want to ask, to include in boQwI' every other sentence
>> every other grammarian has ever written.
>>
>
> boQwI' contains a number of entries which aren't Okrand canon (and they
> are marked as not being by Okrand). There's the {taH pagh taHbe'} speech
> from Hamlet, the "Blood was ankle deep" drinking song from DS9 (whose
> lyrics are described as "not grammatical in modern standard Klingon, since
> they are ancient"), a few words used in novels and the like (marked as
> "extended canon: use with caution!"), and so on.
>
> My guess is that the intent is to include non-canonical words or passages
> that beginners may nonetheless have already heard of in some context other
> than KLI-approved Klingon, so they can find information about them
> (including their non-canonical status) when they come to look them up. In
> this case, beginners coming to boQwI' from DSC might look up lines from the
> show, and if those beginners find entries saying "this is a line from DSC,
> it's probably okay but it's not by Okrand" that will probably be more
> useful to them than finding no results at all and wondering why.
>
> The majority of people who use boQwI' aren't die-hard Klingon fans like
> us. (I was surprised when I first read that from De'vID. I hadn't really
> anticipated the possibly that someone could be interested in Klingon
> without going all-in.) It's quite likely that they aren't going to know
> about the canon/non-canon distinction beforehand unless they are told.
>
> Speaking for myself, I trust SuStel and lojmIt tI'wI' nuv more than Qov.
>> So, why include her sentences and exclude theirs, or yours ? You're a
>> grammarian, right ? Why should I study Qov's sentences, and not yours ?
>>
>
> Lots of people are going to be interested in Qov's sentences, because they
> are going to be broadcast to potentially hundreds of thousands of people,
> who have been told that it's all legitimate Klingon by the producers of
> DSC.
>
> Conversely, almost nobody outside the mailing list is going to be
> interested in the things SuStel or lojmIt or you or me or even Qov have
> said here unless they're reading the mailing list archives. No aspiring
> Klingonist is going to come across (for example) my recent translation of
> "The Second Coming" on the Internet somewhere and then hit up boQwI'
> looking for more details. Including Qov's sentences in boQwI' would at
> least provide an opportunity to get out in front of the issue, and help
> beginners understand that these sentences aren't canonical.
>
> (And, to reiterate... has anybody asked Okrand for his thoughts on the
> matter?)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">I see your point.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">However, boQwI' is meant to be a helping tool, in order to learn =
okrandian klingon, not a star trek klingon guide.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">Anyway, the final decision is of course De'vI=
D's..</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">qunnoq jan puq=
loD=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 11 Aug 2017 5:55 pm, "nIqolay Q" <<a href=3D"mailto:niq=
olay0@gmail.com">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, mayqel qunenoS=
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"auto">lieven:<span><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> Theoretically, if ALL that Qov has t=
ranslated is just fine,=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"=
font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> following the grammar, with=
no confusion - then why should=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> we not show it?</sp=
an><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></span><div dir=3D"auto">In that c=
ase I want to ask, to include in boQwI' every other sentence every othe=
r grammarian has ever written.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
boQwI' contains a number of entries which aren't Okrand canon (and =
they are marked as not being by Okrand). There's the {taH pagh taHbe=
9;} speech from Hamlet, the "Blood was ankle deep" drinking song =
from DS9 (whose lyrics are described as "not grammatical in modern sta=
ndard Klingon, since they are ancient"), a few words used in novels an=
d the like (marked as "extended canon: use with caution!"), and s=
o on. <br><br>My guess is that the intent is to include non-canonical words=
or passages that beginners may nonetheless have already heard of in some c=
ontext other than KLI-approved Klingon, so they can find information about =
them (including their non-canonical status) when they come to look them up.=
In this case, beginners coming to boQwI' from DSC might look up lines =
from the show, and if those beginners find entries saying "this is a l=
ine from DSC, it's probably okay but it's not by Okrand" that =
will probably be more useful to them than finding no results at all and won=
dering why.<br><br></div><div>The majority of people who use boQwI' are=
n't die-hard Klingon fans like us. (I was surprised when I first read t=
hat from De'vID. I hadn't really anticipated the possibly that some=
one could be interested in Klingon without going all-in.) It's quite li=
kely that they aren't going to know about the canon/non-canon distincti=
on beforehand unless they are told.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Speaking for myself, I trust SuStel and lojmIt tI'wI' nuv more tha=
n Qov. So, why include her sentences and exclude theirs, or yours ? You'=
;re a grammarian, right ? Why should I study Qov's sentences, and not y=
ours ?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Lots of people are going=
to be interested in Qov's sentences, because they are going to be broa=
dcast to potentially hundreds of thousands of people, who have been told th=
at it's all legitimate Klingon by the producers of DSC. <br><br>Convers=
ely, almost nobody outside the mailing list is going to be interested in th=
e things SuStel or lojmIt or you or me or even Qov have said here unless th=
ey're reading the mailing list archives. No aspiring Klingonist is goin=
g to come across (for example) my recent translation of "The Second Co=
ming" on the Internet somewhere and then hit up boQwI' looking for=
more details. Including Qov's sentences in boQwI' would at least p=
rovide an opportunity to get out in front of the issue, and help beginners =
understand that these sentences aren't canonical.<br><br></div><div>(An=
d, to reiterate... has anybody asked Okrand for his thoughts on the matter?=
)<br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
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n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
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