[110524] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Is Star Trek: Discovery a new canon category?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Thu Aug 10 23:30:44 2017
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In-Reply-To: <598D1EE1.2060404@trimboli.name>
From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 23:30:42 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
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On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:05 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> Yes, as canonical as "quab jee nah geel." That's the canon of *Star Trek,*
> not the canon of Okrand. They are not the same thing.
>
To quote KGT:
"While the conventional phrases used in some rituals are uttered in modern
Klingon (such as those used in the Rite of Ascension, a ceremony
symbolizing a young Klinggon's attainment of a certain spiritual level),
those used in a great many others are in a form of *no' Hol* (such as those
associated with the *bIreqtal* [*brek'tal*], the ceremony in which the
killer of the leader of a Klingon house marries the widow and thereby
becomes the head of the house himself). In these cases, the phrases must be
studied and memorized by the participants, then repeated back accurately.
Improvising or paraphrasing is entirely inappropriate. Depending on when
the phrases for the ritual originated, the words and grammatical
constructions may be somewhat like or very different from those of modern
Klingon. If the words have survived into modern Klingon but some of the
grammatical features have not, it may sound as if the celebrant is speaking
improper, ungrammatical Klingon. This is not the case, though the same
phrase uttered away from the ritualistic context would be taken as such."
I interpret this passage (and others from the same chapter) to mean that
Okrand is taking the gibberish and bad translations from the shows (like,
say, *Qab jIH ngIl*) and lumping them together in the general category of *no'
Hol*, explaining away the use of bad grammar and pronunciation on the show
as "well, they're just doing it like they did in the old days". He doesn't
explain what the different grammar and pronunciation rules were like back
then, or otherwise elaborate on the syntax of *Qab jIH ngIl*. But the
aberrant grammar and pronunciation are nonetheless accounted for
canonically as an archaic form of the language. In other words, "quab jee
nah geel" *is* the canon of Okrand, though not in any way that relates to
modern Klingon or that can really be learned from.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Aug 10, 2017 at 11:05 PM, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailt=
o:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=
=3D"#FFFFFF"><span class=3D"gmail-"></span><p>Yes, as canonical as "qu=
ab jee nah geel." That's the canon of <i>Star
Trek,</i> not the canon of Okrand. They are not the same thing.<br>=
</p></div></blockquote><div style=3D"transition: transform 1s ease 0s;">To =
quote KGT:<br><br>"While the conventional phrases used in some rituals=
are uttered in modern Klingon (such as those used in the Rite of Ascension=
, a ceremony symbolizing a young Klinggon's attainment of a certain spi=
ritual level), those used in a great many others are in a form of <b>no'=
; Hol</b> (such as those associated with the <b>bIreqtal</b> [<i>brek't=
al</i>], the ceremony in which the killer of the leader of a Klingon house =
marries the widow and thereby becomes the head of the house himself). In th=
ese cases, the phrases must be studied and memorized by the participants, t=
hen repeated back accurately. Improvising or paraphrasing is entirely inapp=
ropriate. Depending on when the phrases for the ritual originated, the word=
s and grammatical constructions may be somewhat like or very different from=
those of modern Klingon. If the words have survived into modern Klingon bu=
t some of the grammatical features have not, it may sound as if the celebra=
nt is speaking improper, ungrammatical Klingon. This is not the case, thoug=
h the same phrase uttered away from the ritualistic context would be taken =
as such."<br><br>I interpret this passage (and others from the same ch=
apter) to mean that Okrand is taking the gibberish and bad translations fro=
m the shows (like, say, <b>Qab jIH ngIl</b>) and lumping them together in t=
he general category of <b>no' Hol</b>, explaining away the use of bad g=
rammar and pronunciation on the show as "well, they're just doing =
it like they did in the old days". He doesn't explain what the dif=
ferent grammar and pronunciation rules were like back then, or otherwise el=
aborate on the syntax of <b>Qab jIH ngIl</b>. But the aberrant grammar and =
pronunciation are nonetheless accounted for canonically as an archaic form =
of the language. In other words, "quab jee nah geel" <i>is</i> th=
e canon of Okrand, though not in any way that relates to modern Klingon or =
that can really be learned from.<br></div></div></div></div>
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