[109924] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] same sex marriage
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rebecca Krause)
Thu Jul 13 17:35:25 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <dd6cd1f9-d2a1-2250-31d2-fd5e02d511de@gmx.de>
From: Rebecca Krause <rebecca.krause.1985@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 17:35:20 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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2017
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
> Last month, the German government has decided to allow the same sex
> marriage. This means that a man can marry a man, and a woman can marry a
> woman. We have the Klingon verbs {Saw} for the man and {nay} for what the
> wife does. I wanted to twitter about that in Klingon, and wondered if
> {Sawchuq} would make sense. I contacted Marc Okrand, who talked to Maltz
> about that, and instead of just saying "yes", Maltz provided some more
> interesting details, including the verb {tlhogh}.
>
> The entire message is archived here:
> http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170713.html
>
> ---begin---
>
> Lieven =E2=80=93
>
> I had a talk with Maltz about this, and he had more to say about it than =
I
> would have guessed!
>
> First of all, he said that {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are perfectly good
> words and would be understood to refer to same-sex marriage.
>
> But he went on...
>
> Though {Saw} and {nay} are defined in terms of male/female and when used
> in this way everything is fine, the idea is not simply that when men get
> married they do something that's somehow different from what women do whe=
n
> they get married. The concept is more of a yin-yang thing. That is, there
> are two people joining together in marriage who are not the same as each
> other. They complement each other, complete each other =E2=80=93 all that=
kind of
> stuff people say at weddings. It all goes back to the relationship Kahles=
s
> and Lukara had. So one of the people getting married brings one set of
> values, strengths, abilities, etc., to the marriage, and the other brings
> another (complementary, overlapping, enhancing) set. And vice versa. That=
's
> why, when they get married, they're not said to do the same thing.
>
> Now, you may say, if using two words for "marry" is because there are two
> different but complementary partners, shouldn't the word for "marry" when
> both people getting married are the same gender also be two different
> words? If so, {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} don't accomplish that.
>
> And, if you said all of that, you would be right. But the association of
> {Saw} with "husband" and {nay} with "wife" has been around for so long, t=
he
> "complementariness" notion has been lost for many people. That's why
> {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are easily understandable when used for same-sex
> marriage.
>
> In addition, though, at least in some places, people are dealing with
> gender in a way that goes beyond simple "male" and "female." So if one of
> the people getting married doesn't identify as either "male" or "female" =
=E2=80=93
> or if both don't - then what do you do? Theoretically, both use {nay} or
> both use {Saw} or one uses {nay} and the other uses {Saw}, but how to
> choose and which is which? This is particularly tricky because these two
> words are tangled up with "female" and "male," exactly what those
> identifying as neither are wanting to not express.
>
> Maltz says that, more and more, he's hearing an older word, {tlhogh}. (I
> don't know how he's hearing this =E2=80=93 my basement isn't really equip=
ped for
> extraterrestrial communication =E2=80=93 but I certainly believe him.) Th=
e noun
> {tlhogh} is quite common. It means "marriage," and it can be used for
> anybody marrying anybody. The verb {tlhogh}, however, was long considered
> quaint or archaic. But it's being used with increased frequency. It means
> "marry" and, like its noun counterpart, it can be used by both partners
> regardless of sex/gender, so it's used for male-male marriages,
> female-female marriages, and everything else. Use of this word lacks the
> yin-yang connotation of {Saw} and {nay}, but it's well suited for
> expressing what the folks getting married are up to. Depending on what yo=
u
> want to say, both {tlhogh} and {tlhoghchuq} are heard: {B tlhogh A} "A
> marries B"; {tlhoghchuq A B je} "A and B marry each other." But some
> Klingons also say {Sawchuq} and {naychuq}. The choice seems to be whateve=
r
> the folks getting married prefer.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> See you soon.
>
> =E2=80=93 Marc
> ----end of file----
>
>
> --
> Lieven L. Litaer
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
> Grammarian of the KLI
> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
> http://www.klingonwiki.net
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">2017<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
;<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Last month, the German g=
overnment has decided to allow the same sex marriage. This means that a man=
can marry a man, and a woman can marry a woman. We have the Klingon verbs =
{Saw} for the man and {nay} for what the wife does. I wanted to twitter abo=
ut that in Klingon, and wondered if {Sawchuq} would make sense. I contacted=
Marc Okrand, who talked to Maltz about that, and instead of just saying &q=
uot;yes", Maltz provided some more interesting details, including the =
verb {tlhogh}.<br>
<br>
The entire message is archived here:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170713.html" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.qephom.de/e/message<wbr>_from_maltz_=
170713.html</a><br>
<br>
---begin---<br>
<br>
Lieven =E2=80=93<br>
<br>
I had a talk with Maltz about this, and he had more to say about it than I =
would have guessed!<br>
<br>
First of all, he said that {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are perfectly good words=
and would be understood to refer to same-sex marriage.<br>
<br>
But he went on...<br>
<br>
Though {Saw} and {nay} are defined in terms of male/female and when used in=
this way everything is fine, the idea is not simply that when men get marr=
ied they do something that's somehow different from what women do when =
they get married. The concept is more of a yin-yang thing. That is, there a=
re two people joining together in marriage who are not the same as each oth=
er. They complement each other, complete each other =E2=80=93 all that kind=
of stuff people say at weddings. It all goes back to the relationship Kahl=
ess and Lukara had. So one of the people getting married brings one set of =
values, strengths, abilities, etc., to the marriage, and the other brings a=
nother (complementary, overlapping, enhancing) set. And vice versa. That=
9;s why, when they get married, they're not said to do the same thing.<=
br>
<br>
Now, you may say, if using two words for "marry" is because there=
are two different but complementary partners, shouldn't the word for &=
quot;marry" when both people getting married are the same gender also =
be two different words? If so, {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} don't accomplish=
that.<br>
<br>
And, if you said all of that, you would be right. But the association of {S=
aw} with "husband" and {nay} with "wife" has been aroun=
d for so long, the "complementariness" notion has been lost for m=
any people. That's why {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are easily understandabl=
e when used for same-sex marriage.<br>
<br>
In addition, though, at least in some places, people are dealing with gende=
r in a way that goes beyond simple "male" and "female."=
So if one of the people getting married doesn't identify as either &qu=
ot;male" or "female" =E2=80=93 or if both don't - then w=
hat do you do? Theoretically, both use {nay} or both use {Saw} or one uses =
{nay} and the other uses {Saw}, but how to choose and which is which? This =
is particularly tricky because these two words are tangled up with "fe=
male" and "male," exactly what those identifying as neither =
are wanting to not express.<br>
<br>
Maltz says that, more and more, he's hearing an older word, {tlhogh}. (=
I don't know how he's hearing this =E2=80=93 my basement isn't =
really equipped for extraterrestrial communication =E2=80=93 but I certainl=
y believe him.) The noun {tlhogh} is quite common. It means "marriage,=
" and it can be used for anybody marrying anybody. The verb {tlhogh}, =
however, was long considered quaint or archaic. But it's being used wit=
h increased frequency. It means "marry" and, like its noun counte=
rpart, it can be used by both partners regardless of sex/gender, so it'=
s used for male-male marriages, female-female marriages, and everything els=
e. Use of this word lacks the yin-yang connotation of {Saw} and {nay}, but =
it's well suited for expressing what the folks getting married are up t=
o. Depending on what you want to say, both {tlhogh} and {tlhoghchuq} are he=
ard: {B tlhogh A} "A marries B"; {tlhoghchuq A B je} "A and =
B marry each other." But some Klingons also say {Sawchuq} and {naychuq=
}. The choice seems to be whatever the folks getting married prefer.<br>
<br>
I hope this helps.<br>
<br>
See you soon.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=93 Marc<br>
----end of file----<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingo<wbr>nteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.klingonwiki.net</a><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Ho=
l@lists.kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
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