[109925] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] same sex marriage
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rebecca Krause)
Thu Jul 13 17:38:07 2017
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In-Reply-To: <CAA7P6ftBeNRHQy2wrpenbk_Bu9vxKLpJqBUqYxxjNMFMAokPpg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Rebecca Krause <rebecca.krause.1985@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 17:38:00 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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thanks for the lesson in heteronormativity Maltz/Marc but we didn't need
you to explain it to us
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Rebecca Krause <
rebecca.krause.1985@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2017
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> Last month, the German government has decided to allow the same sex
>> marriage. This means that a man can marry a man, and a woman can marry a
>> woman. We have the Klingon verbs {Saw} for the man and {nay} for what th=
e
>> wife does. I wanted to twitter about that in Klingon, and wondered if
>> {Sawchuq} would make sense. I contacted Marc Okrand, who talked to Maltz
>> about that, and instead of just saying "yes", Maltz provided some more
>> interesting details, including the verb {tlhogh}.
>>
>> The entire message is archived here:
>> http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170713.html
>>
>> ---begin---
>>
>> Lieven =E2=80=93
>>
>> I had a talk with Maltz about this, and he had more to say about it than
>> I would have guessed!
>>
>> First of all, he said that {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are perfectly good
>> words and would be understood to refer to same-sex marriage.
>>
>> But he went on...
>>
>> Though {Saw} and {nay} are defined in terms of male/female and when used
>> in this way everything is fine, the idea is not simply that when men get
>> married they do something that's somehow different from what women do wh=
en
>> they get married. The concept is more of a yin-yang thing. That is, ther=
e
>> are two people joining together in marriage who are not the same as each
>> other. They complement each other, complete each other =E2=80=93 all tha=
t kind of
>> stuff people say at weddings. It all goes back to the relationship Kahle=
ss
>> and Lukara had. So one of the people getting married brings one set of
>> values, strengths, abilities, etc., to the marriage, and the other bring=
s
>> another (complementary, overlapping, enhancing) set. And vice versa. Tha=
t's
>> why, when they get married, they're not said to do the same thing.
>>
>> Now, you may say, if using two words for "marry" is because there are tw=
o
>> different but complementary partners, shouldn't the word for "marry" whe=
n
>> both people getting married are the same gender also be two different
>> words? If so, {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} don't accomplish that.
>>
>> And, if you said all of that, you would be right. But the association of
>> {Saw} with "husband" and {nay} with "wife" has been around for so long, =
the
>> "complementariness" notion has been lost for many people. That's why
>> {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are easily understandable when used for same-sex
>> marriage.
>>
>> In addition, though, at least in some places, people are dealing with
>> gender in a way that goes beyond simple "male" and "female." So if one o=
f
>> the people getting married doesn't identify as either "male" or "female"=
=E2=80=93
>> or if both don't - then what do you do? Theoretically, both use {nay} or
>> both use {Saw} or one uses {nay} and the other uses {Saw}, but how to
>> choose and which is which? This is particularly tricky because these two
>> words are tangled up with "female" and "male," exactly what those
>> identifying as neither are wanting to not express.
>>
>> Maltz says that, more and more, he's hearing an older word, {tlhogh}. (I
>> don't know how he's hearing this =E2=80=93 my basement isn't really equi=
pped for
>> extraterrestrial communication =E2=80=93 but I certainly believe him.) T=
he noun
>> {tlhogh} is quite common. It means "marriage," and it can be used for
>> anybody marrying anybody. The verb {tlhogh}, however, was long considere=
d
>> quaint or archaic. But it's being used with increased frequency. It mean=
s
>> "marry" and, like its noun counterpart, it can be used by both partners
>> regardless of sex/gender, so it's used for male-male marriages,
>> female-female marriages, and everything else. Use of this word lacks the
>> yin-yang connotation of {Saw} and {nay}, but it's well suited for
>> expressing what the folks getting married are up to. Depending on what y=
ou
>> want to say, both {tlhogh} and {tlhoghchuq} are heard: {B tlhogh A} "A
>> marries B"; {tlhoghchuq A B je} "A and B marry each other." But some
>> Klingons also say {Sawchuq} and {naychuq}. The choice seems to be whatev=
er
>> the folks getting married prefer.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> See you soon.
>>
>> =E2=80=93 Marc
>> ----end of file----
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lieven L. Litaer
>> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
>> Grammarian of the KLI
>> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
>> http://www.klingonwiki.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">thanks for the lesson in heteronormativity Maltz/Marc but =
we didn't need you to explain it to us<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Rebecca=
Krause <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rebecca.krause.1985@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">rebecca.krause.1985@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">2017<br></div><div class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>>=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Last month, the German go=
vernment has decided to allow the same sex marriage. This means that a man =
can marry a man, and a woman can marry a woman. We have the Klingon verbs {=
Saw} for the man and {nay} for what the wife does. I wanted to twitter abou=
t that in Klingon, and wondered if {Sawchuq} would make sense. I contacted =
Marc Okrand, who talked to Maltz about that, and instead of just saying &qu=
ot;yes", Maltz provided some more interesting details, including the v=
erb {tlhogh}.<br>
<br>
The entire message is archived here:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170713.html" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.qephom.de/e/message<wbr>_from_maltz_=
170713.html</a><br>
<br>
---begin---<br>
<br>
Lieven =E2=80=93<br>
<br>
I had a talk with Maltz about this, and he had more to say about it than I =
would have guessed!<br>
<br>
First of all, he said that {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are perfectly good words=
and would be understood to refer to same-sex marriage.<br>
<br>
But he went on...<br>
<br>
Though {Saw} and {nay} are defined in terms of male/female and when used in=
this way everything is fine, the idea is not simply that when men get marr=
ied they do something that's somehow different from what women do when =
they get married. The concept is more of a yin-yang thing. That is, there a=
re two people joining together in marriage who are not the same as each oth=
er. They complement each other, complete each other =E2=80=93 all that kind=
of stuff people say at weddings. It all goes back to the relationship Kahl=
ess and Lukara had. So one of the people getting married brings one set of =
values, strengths, abilities, etc., to the marriage, and the other brings a=
nother (complementary, overlapping, enhancing) set. And vice versa. That=
9;s why, when they get married, they're not said to do the same thing.<=
br>
<br>
Now, you may say, if using two words for "marry" is because there=
are two different but complementary partners, shouldn't the word for &=
quot;marry" when both people getting married are the same gender also =
be two different words? If so, {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} don't accomplish=
that.<br>
<br>
And, if you said all of that, you would be right. But the association of {S=
aw} with "husband" and {nay} with "wife" has been aroun=
d for so long, the "complementariness" notion has been lost for m=
any people. That's why {Sawchuq} and {naychuq} are easily understandabl=
e when used for same-sex marriage.<br>
<br>
In addition, though, at least in some places, people are dealing with gende=
r in a way that goes beyond simple "male" and "female."=
So if one of the people getting married doesn't identify as either &qu=
ot;male" or "female" =E2=80=93 or if both don't - then w=
hat do you do? Theoretically, both use {nay} or both use {Saw} or one uses =
{nay} and the other uses {Saw}, but how to choose and which is which? This =
is particularly tricky because these two words are tangled up with "fe=
male" and "male," exactly what those identifying as neither =
are wanting to not express.<br>
<br>
Maltz says that, more and more, he's hearing an older word, {tlhogh}. (=
I don't know how he's hearing this =E2=80=93 my basement isn't =
really equipped for extraterrestrial communication =E2=80=93 but I certainl=
y believe him.) The noun {tlhogh} is quite common. It means "marriage,=
" and it can be used for anybody marrying anybody. The verb {tlhogh}, =
however, was long considered quaint or archaic. But it's being used wit=
h increased frequency. It means "marry" and, like its noun counte=
rpart, it can be used by both partners regardless of sex/gender, so it'=
s used for male-male marriages, female-female marriages, and everything els=
e. Use of this word lacks the yin-yang connotation of {Saw} and {nay}, but =
it's well suited for expressing what the folks getting married are up t=
o. Depending on what you want to say, both {tlhogh} and {tlhoghchuq} are he=
ard: {B tlhogh A} "A marries B"; {tlhoghchuq A B je} "A and =
B marry each other." But some Klingons also say {Sawchuq} and {naychuq=
}. The choice seems to be whatever the folks getting married prefer.<br>
<br>
I hope this helps.<br>
<br>
See you soon.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=93 Marc<br>
----end of file----<span class=3D"m_-4733901976297580570HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingo<wbr>nteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.klingonwiki.net</a><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
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l@lists.kli.org</a><br>
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oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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