[109289] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Wed Mar 22 23:15:30 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 03:15:18 +0000
In-Reply-To: <20170323021151.0A28A8DB295D@zapata.dreamhost.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. =3D=3D
I agree quite a lot with both of you. -'e' really is criminally underused; =
I've been studying Japanese lately, and I've grown to feel that topic marke=
rs are AWESOME. And certainly, there are many cases where it does the job q=
uite well.
However, as SuStel says, the topic marker is quite vague with regard to wha=
t role the topic has in a sentence. Consider a sentence like {ghItlhwIj'e' =
SoHvaD jIjatlhnIS.}
Do I need to talk to you *about* my essay, or is speaking to you part of my=
process for writing the essay?
Likewise with a sentence such as {parmaq Dotlhmaj'e' jIHvaD jatlhqangbe'law=
'.}
Does he/she seem unwilling to talk to me *about* our relationship, or is hi=
m/her being seemingly unwilling to talk to me an issue of our relationship?
I'm being a bit obtuse, of course, and these ambiguities can probably be so=
rted out from context without too much trouble, but it illustrates a proble=
m.
Also, because we like to use -'e' to disambiguate relative clauses, more co=
mplex sentences like (5) come off as a bit disjointed to me; "Why the space=
station that our enemies destroyed...? Our CO refuses to talk."
This can be alleviated by splitting things into multiple sentences, though:
{tengchaH luSangta' jaghpu'ma'. tengchaHvam'e' qatlh jatlhQo' ra'wI'ma'?}
Regarding {vay' bop nuv}: I also think that {bop} can probably be used with=
a person as the subject, but I suspect that it has more to do with a perso=
n's focus than about what they talk about; a {bop'eghwI'} might be somebody=
who's very self-absorbed, for example, which may correlate with talking ab=
out oneself, but isn't necessarily the same thing.
Likewise, a person focusing on or considering something while talking isn't=
necessarily talking *about* that thing. For instance, when talking about c=
ity planning, I might not talk much about myself, but I may place too much =
focus on issues that affect me, and approach them in a way that is relates =
to my experience (for example by being oblivious to the needs of rural resi=
dents).
Alternatively, I might be trying to influence a discussion in a way that be=
nefits me, but if I'm clever about it, I probably won't actually talk *abou=
t* myself.
That being said, both the topic particle and words like {bop}, {buS}, {qel}=
, {Del} and so forth are all useful tools for describing the topic of a con=
versation, and you can accomplish a lot with them, which is why I don't rea=
lly consider this to be a lexical "gap", per se.
That being said, I do feel that "talk about (subject)" is a useful enough e=
xpression that having a canonical word or expression for it makes a lot of =
sense (and in particular, a verb would be nice, because those are very vers=
atile).
...and, of course, Marc might end up simply telling us that Maltz thought t=
his was a weird request, and say that we should keep using workarounds like=
the ones we've discussed here.
And then some of us will grind our teeth for a bit and feel that this was a=
wasted request, but in the end, we would still end up better equipped for =
the next time we talk about talking about what it is we talk about.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of sustel=
@trimboli.name <sustel@trimboli.name>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 03:11
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
This has been suggested before, but I think the link between the speech bei=
ng reported and the topic of the sentence itself is too weak to sustain thi=
s argument. Basically, there=92s little reason for the listener to expect t=
hat the narrator=92s topic is the reported speaker=92s topic.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
From: Ed Bailey<mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:56 PM
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:fel=
ixm@kth.se>> wrote:
- talk about, discuss (verb)
Example sentences:
(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."
(2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil."
(3) "What are y'all talking about?"
(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about."
(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station that our en=
emies destroyed?"
(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."
(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much."
(8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much."
I'm not suggesting these are the ideal (or necessarily even acceptable) way=
to express your sentences, but lately I've been considering how sentences =
could be made more concise with the topic marker {-'e'}, which seems underu=
sed (by humans, anyway). For many situations, it seems like a shorter alter=
native to tacking {bopbogh...} onto the object of consideration. So can you=
indicate the topic of conversation this way before an intransitive verb of=
speech? How do these sentences strike you?
(1) tlhIngan Hol'e' jIjatlh 'e' vItIv.
(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey. ngoDvam'e' majatlh.
(3) nuq'e' SujatlhtaH?
(4) Qe'e' choja'ta'bogh vISuchta'.
(5) qatlh tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' jatlhqangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'?
(6) jInmol'e' turtaHbogh mujatlhQo'.
(7) tlhoy bop'egh 'eDjenvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.
(8) tlhoy bopchuq parmaqqayvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.
For the last two, due to their reflexive nature, I couldn't see how to use =
the topic marker without repeating {'eDjen} or {parmaqqay} (though just bec=
ause of my English sense of style: I seem to recall from TKD something to t=
he effect that such repetition isn't bad style in Klingon). It seems to me =
that {bop} <be about, be concerned with> can take a person as its subject a=
s well as the usual {bom}, {lut}, etc. If not, I'd cheerfully change {bop} =
to {buS} or {qIm} or somesuch.
~mIp'av
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<p>=3D=3D DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. =3D=3D <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I agree quite a lot with both of you. -'e' really is criminally underuse=
d; I've been studying Japanese lately, and I've grown to feel that topic ma=
rkers are AWESOME. And certainly, there are many cases where it does the jo=
b quite well.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>However, as SuStel says, the topic marker is quite vague with =
regard to what role the topic has in a sentence. Consid=
er a sentence like {ghItlhwIj'e' SoHvaD jIjatlhnIS.}</p>
<p>Do I need to talk to you *about* my essay, or is speaking to y=
ou part of my process for writing the essay?</p>
<p>Likewise with a sentence such as {parmaq Dotlhmaj'e' jIHvaD jatlhqangbe'=
law'.}</p>
<p>Does he/she seem unwilling to talk to me *about* our relationship, or is=
him/her being seemingly unwilling to talk to me an issue of our relationsh=
ip?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I'm being a bit obtuse, of course, and these ambiguities can probably be=
sorted out from context without too much trouble, but it illustrates a pro=
blem.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Also, because we like to use -'e' to disambiguate relative clauses, more=
complex sentences like (5) come off as a bit disjointed to me; "Why t=
he space station that our enemies destroyed...? Our CO refuses to talk.&quo=
t;</p>
<p>This can be alleviated by splitting things into multiple sentences, thou=
gh:</p>
<p>{tengchaH luSangta' jaghpu'ma'. tengchaHvam'e' qatlh jatlhQo' ra'wI=
'ma'?} <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Regarding {vay' bop nuv}: I also think that {bop} can pro=
bably be used with a person as the subject, but I suspect that it has =
more to do with a person's focus than about what they talk about; =
;a {bop'eghwI'} might be somebody who's very self-absorbed, for
example, which may correlate with talking about oneself, but isn't necessa=
rily the same thing.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Likewise, a person focusing on or considering something while talking is=
n't necessarily talking *about* that thing. For instance, when talking abou=
t city planning, I might not talk much about myself, but I may place too mu=
ch focus on issues that affect me,
and approach them in a way that is relates to my experience (for example b=
y being oblivious to the needs of rural residents).<br>
</p>
<p>Alternatively, I might be trying to influence a discussion in a way=
that benefits me, but if I'm clever about it, I probably won't actually&nb=
sp;talk *about* myself.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>That being said, both the topic particle and words like {bop}, {buS}, {q=
el}, {Del} and so forth are all useful tools for describing the topic of a =
conversation, and you can accomplish a lot with them, which is why I don't =
really consider this to be a lexical
"gap", per se.</p>
<p>That being said, I do feel that "talk about (subject)" is a us=
eful enough expression that having a canonical word or expression for it ma=
kes a lot of sense (and in particular, a verb would be nice, because those =
are very versatile).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>...and, of course, Marc might end up simply telling us that Maltz though=
t this was a weird request, and say that we should keep using workarounds l=
ike the ones we've discussed here.</p>
<p>And then some of us will grind our teeth for a bit and feel that this wa=
s a wasted request, but in the end, we would still end up better equipped f=
or the next time we talk about talking about what it is we talk about.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tl=
hingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of sustel@trimboli.name <=
sustel@trimboli.name><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 23, 2017 03:11<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This has been suggested before, but I think the link=
between the speech being reported and the topic of the sentence itself is =
too weak to sustain this argument. Basically, there=92s little reason for t=
he listener to expect that the narrator=92s
topic is the reported speaker=92s topic.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <br>
SuStel<br>
http://trimboli.name</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com">Ed Bailey</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:56 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>=
<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" target=3D"_blank">felixm@kth.se</a>> =
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>- talk about, discuss (verb)</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>Example sentences:</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil."</span=
></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(3) "What are y'all talking about?"</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about."</span></p=
>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station that =
our enemies destroyed?"</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."</s=
pan></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much."</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black"=
>(8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much."</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not suggesting these are the ideal (or necessari=
ly even acceptable) way to express your sentences, but lately I've been con=
sidering how sentences could be made more concise with the topic marker {-'=
e'}, which seems underused (by humans,
anyway). For many situations, it seems like a shorter alternative to tacki=
ng {bopbogh...} onto the object of consideration. So can you indicate the t=
opic of conversation this way before an intransitive verb of speech? How do=
these sentences strike you?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(1) tlhIngan Hol'e' jIjatlh 'e' vItIv.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey. ngoDvam'e' majatlh.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(3) nuq'e' SujatlhtaH?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(4) Qe'e' choja'ta'bogh vISuchta'.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(5) qatlh tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' jatlh=
qangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(6) jInmol'e' turtaHbogh mujatlhQo'.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(7) tlhoy bop'egh 'eDjenvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">(8) tlhoy bopchuq par=
maqqayvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">For the last two, due=
to their reflexive nature, I couldn't see how to use the topic marker with=
out repeating {'eDjen} or {parmaqqay} (though just because of my English se=
nse of style: I seem to recall from
TKD something to the effect that such repetition isn't bad style in Klingo=
n). It seems to me that {bop} <be about, be concerned with> can take =
a person as its subject as well as the usual {bom}, {lut}, etc. If not, I'd=
cheerfully change {bop} to {buS} or {qIm}
or somesuch.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">~mIp'av</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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