[109288] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (sustel@trimboli.name)
Wed Mar 22 22:11:51 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
From: <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:11:17 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CABSTb1fdwd+W+AoRAKGaX_aR-gh2qGTrQgdTcYGoVtXnaRQZxg@mail.gmail.com>
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This has been suggested before, but I think the link between the speech bei=
ng reported and the topic of the sentence itself is too weak to sustain thi=
s argument. Basically, there=E2=80=99s little reason for the listener to ex=
pect that the narrator=E2=80=99s topic is the reported speaker=E2=80=99s to=
pic.
--=20
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
From: Ed Bailey
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:56 PM
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
- talk about, discuss (verb)
Example sentences:
(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."
(2) "We spoke about the fact that=C2=A0bicycles are evil."
(3) "What are y'all talking about?"
(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me about."
(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk about the space station that our en=
emies destroyed?"
(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."
(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much."
(8) "Those lovers talk about each other too much."
I'm not suggesting these are the ideal (or necessarily even acceptable) way=
to express your sentences, but lately I've been considering how sentences =
could be made more concise with the topic marker {-'e'}, which seems underu=
sed (by humans, anyway). For many situations, it seems like a shorter alter=
native to tacking {bopbogh...} onto the object of consideration. So can you=
indicate the topic of conversation this way before an intransitive verb of=
speech? How do these sentences strike you?
=C2=A0
(1) tlhIngan Hol'e' jIjatlh 'e' vItIv.
(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey. ngoDvam'e' majatlh.
(3) nuq'e' SujatlhtaH?
(4) Qe'e' choja'ta'bogh vISuchta'.
(5) qatlh tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'ma' jatlhqangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'?
(6) jInmol'e' turtaHbogh mujatlhQo'.
(7) tlhoy bop'egh 'eDjenvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.
(8) tlhoy bopchuq parmaqqayvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.
For the last two, due to their reflexive nature, I couldn't see how to use =
the topic marker without repeating {'eDjen} or {parmaqqay} (though just bec=
ause of my English sense of style: I seem to recall from TKD something to t=
he effect that such repetition isn't bad style in Klingon). It seems to me =
that {bop} <be about, be concerned with> can take a person as its subject a=
s well as the usual {bom}, {lut}, etc. If not, I'd cheerfully change {bop} =
to {buS} or {qIm} or somesuch.
~mIp'av
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3D"#954F72"><div cla=
ss=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>This has been suggested before, but =
I think the link between the speech being reported and the topic of the sen=
tence itself is too weak to sustain this argument. Basically, there=E2=80=
=99s little reason for the listener to expect that the narrator=E2=80=99s t=
opic is the reported speaker=E2=80=99s topic.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>SuStel<br>http://trimboli.name<=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style=3D'mso-element:para=
-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0i=
n 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b>=
<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com">Ed Bailey</a><br><b>Sent: =
</b>Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:56 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:tlhin=
gan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [tlhIngan =
Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!</p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p>=
</p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Felix Malmen=
beck <<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" target=3D"_blank">felixm@kth.se</=
a>> wrote:</p><div><div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:sol=
id #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0=
in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p style=3D'background:w=
hite'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>- talk about, discuss (v=
erb)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font=
-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style=3D'backgroun=
d:white'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Example sentences:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:1=
2.0pt;color:black'>(1) "I enjoy talking about Klingon."<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;c=
olor:black'>(2) "We spoke about the fact that bicycles are evil.&=
quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:12.0pt;color:black'>(3) "What are y'all talking about?"<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:1=
2.0pt;color:black'>(4) "I visited the restaurant that you told me abou=
t."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>(5) "Why is our CO so unwilling to talk =
about the space station that our enemies destroyed?"<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:bla=
ck'>(6) "She refuses to talk about the project she's working on."=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt;color:black'>(7) "That blowhard talks about himself too much.=
"<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;color:black'>(8) "Those lovers talk about each other to=
o much."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>I'm not suggesting these are the ideal (or necessarily even acceptable=
) way to express your sentences, but lately I've been considering how sente=
nces could be made more concise with the topic marker {-'e'}, which seems u=
nderused (by humans, anyway). For many situations, it seems like a shorter =
alternative to tacking {bopbogh...} onto the object of consideration. So ca=
n you indicate the topic of conversation this way before an intransitive ve=
rb of speech? How do these sentences strike you?</p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal> </p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(1) tlhIngan Hol'e' jIja=
tlh 'e' vItIv.</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(2) mIgh qam Do Dujmey. n=
goDvam'e' majatlh.</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(3) nuq'e' SujatlhtaH=
?</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(4) Qe'e' choja'ta'bogh vISuchta'.</p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(5) qatlh tengchaH'e' luSangta'bogh jaghpu'=
ma' jatlhqangbe'qu' ra'wI'ma'?</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(6) jInmo=
l'e' turtaHbogh mujatlhQo'.</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>(7) tlhoy bo=
p'egh 'eDjenvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-bottom:12.0pt'>(8) tlhoy bopchuq parmaqqayvetlh jatlhtaHvIS.</p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>For the last two=
, due to their reflexive nature, I couldn't see how to use the topic marker=
without repeating {'eDjen} or {parmaqqay} (though just because of my Engli=
sh sense of style: I seem to recall from TKD something to the effect that s=
uch repetition isn't bad style in Klingon). It seems to me that {bop} <b=
e about, be concerned with> can take a person as its subject as well as =
the usual {bom}, {lut}, etc. If not, I'd cheerfully change {bop} to {buS} o=
r {qIm} or somesuch.</p></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>~mIp'a=
v</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>=
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