[108754] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Sat Dec 31 11:28:33 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 16:28:22 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cLH3VM+LNTEG56dojon=wHw6QO+w1Pdo_zbEjS1bugJ=A@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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I also forego question marks and exclamation marks at times, sticking to ju=
st periods and commas. (Used to do it quite a lot, now less so)
It mirrors the writing system in pIqaD, which I consider to be a good thing=
. It's nice to have a one-to-one transliteration between the two (which is =
also part of the reason I prefer to transcribe words rather than writing th=
em out in English).
That being said, TKD and other Okrandian sources use exclamation marks and =
question marks in romanized, so it makes sense that we also do. After all, =
romanized tlhIngan Hol is still the most widely accepted version; pIqaD has=
gained a lot of popularity in recent years, but it is still not universall=
y accepted.
http://klingonska.org/punct.html
//loghaD
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel=
qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 17:21
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a'
however, there is a major difference between the {-'a'} and punctuation in =
general.
if you are reading a sentence which contains a verb bearing the {-'a'}, or =
a sentence starting with any question word, there is no way you can't reali=
ze instantly that it is a question.
but if you are trying to read a passage with no commas and periods, then go=
od luck, especially in klingon.
one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly this lack of punct=
uation. the problem isn't the lack of question marks; its having to be a ps=
ychic in order to understand where everything starts and stops.
whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to read just a few se=
ntences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall.
I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am I supposed to understa=
nd this" ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 31 Dec 2016 5:00 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimbo=
li.name>> wrote:
On 12/31/2016 9:30 AM, Lieven wrote:
Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Some time ago I decided to stop using question marks, because I decided
that they are unnecessary.
Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look st=
range in English.
On the other hand, I believe that other punctuation marks are definitely
necessary.
Not really
It's the same in English
When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over
If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into =
the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am=
doing now
This is the next phrase
So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qu=
stion mark is not :-)
Well, technically, line endings are also punctuation. But capitalization, a=
lternate typefaces, horizontal and vertical spacing, and marks are all used=
to improve the readability of writing, refined* over thousands of years. E=
arlier writing often eschewed punctuation, showing it's not strictly necess=
ary. But it helps a lot. Messing around with it is a disservice to your rea=
ders.
* But the modern ignorance of the difference between text figures and linin=
g figures is nothing short of a crime!
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<p>I also forego question marks and exclamation marks at times, sticking to=
just periods and commas. (Used to do it quite a lot, now less so)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It mirrors the writing system in pIqaD, which I consider to be a good th=
ing. It's nice to have a one-to-one transliteration between the two (which =
is also part of the reason I prefer to transcribe words rather than writing=
them out in English).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>That being said, TKD and other Okrandian sources use exclamation marks a=
nd question marks in romanized, so it makes sense that we also do. After al=
l, romanized tlhIngan Hol is still the most widely accepted version; pIqaD =
has gained a lot of popularity in
recent years, but it is still not universally accepted.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/punct.html">http://klingonska.org/punct=
.html</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>//loghaD<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tlh=
ingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun=
@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 31, 2016 17:21<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Quvar, QISmaS cake Davutta''a'</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">however, there is a major difference between the {-'a'} a=
nd punctuation in general.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">if you are reading a sentence which contains a verb beari=
ng the {-'a'}, or a sentence starting with any question word, there is no w=
ay you can't realize instantly that it is a question.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">but if you are trying to read a passage with no commas an=
d periods, then good luck, especially in klingon.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">one of the reasons I refuse to read paq'batlh is exactly =
this lack of punctuation. the problem isn't the lack of question marks; its=
having to be a psychic in order to understand where everything starts and =
stops.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">whenever voragh quotes the paq'batlh, and I am trying to =
read just a few sentences, I feel like smashing my phone against the wall.<=
/div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I can't help but hear myself saying "how the f*** am=
I supposed to understand this" ?<br>
<br>
<div dir=3D"auto">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 31 Dec 2016 5:00 pm, "SuStel" <<=
a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<=
br type=3D"attribution">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"m_-1402518030185919446moz-cite-prefix">On 12/31/2016 9:30 AM,=
Lieven wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">Am 31.12.2016 um 15:17 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: <b=
r>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">Some time ago I decided t=
o stop using question marks, because I decided
<br>
that they are unnecessary. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why did you decide that. Don't you think it looks strange. Would it look st=
range in English.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">On the other hand, I beli=
eve that other punctuation marks are definitely
<br>
necessary. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Not really <br>
It's the same in English <br>
When you write one line per phrase it's clear the sentence is over <br>
If you have longer phrases that are longer than one line and may jump into =
the following line you can just leave a space to mark a ne phrase like I am=
doing now
<br>
<br>
This is the next phrase <br>
<br>
So saying that punctuation is necessary contradicts your saying that the qu=
stion mark is not
<span class=3D"m_-1402518030185919446moz-smiley-s1" title=3D":-)"><span>:-)=
</span></span></blockquote>
<br>
<p>Well, technically, line endings are also punctuation. But capitalization=
, alternate typefaces, horizontal and vertical spacing, and marks are all u=
sed to improve the readability of writing, refined* over thousands of years=
. Earlier writing often eschewed
punctuation, showing it's not strictly necessary. But it helps a lot. Mess=
ing around with it is a disservice to your readers.</p>
<p>* But the modern ignorance of the difference between text figures and li=
ning figures is nothing short of a crime!<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"m_-1402518030185919446moz-signature" cols=3D"72">-- =0A=
SuStel=0A=
<a class=3D"m_-1402518030185919446moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
<br>
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><br>
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oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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