[108682] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mutpu' or mutmey ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Thu Dec 29 10:25:01 2016
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 10:24:28 -0500
In-Reply-To: <CAMBCAn__mfDDnLuGTpRXWR3adAK73dEtzoR4utrs_gwpe73oSw@mail.gmail.com>
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On 12/29/2016 10:05 AM, Lawrence M. Schoen wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:52 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
>
> /A *mut* is not a thing capable of using language. Its members
> are, but it is not. It is an abstraction./
>
> I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. Metaphorically, we
> treat groups as possessing the attributes of language users all the time.
>
> The Borg Collective express outrage at latest Star Trek film.
>
> Barbers Union presses for more Bolians in new Trek series.
>
> Readers of Schoen's fiction ask if elephants can really talk.
>
> Translate any of the above or similar statements into Klingon and the
> group is clearly understood to be made up of language users and no one
> would blink twice at the figurative use of extending that attribute to
> the group.
Voragh has just posted some evidence supporting my statement.
/paq'batlh/ has *qorDu'wIj* instead of **qorDu'wI'*. /paq'batlh/, KGT,
and Klingon Monopoly have *tuqlIj* and *tuqmaj* and *tuqmey *and even
*tuqmeyraj *instead of **tuqlI'* and **tuqma'* and *tuqpu'***and
**tuqpu'ra'**.*
We also recently got the word *Dojmey*/mass, masses, multitude/ which is
never **Dojpu',* even when referring only to people, though in this case
it may be that the word *Doj* is inherently gendered as a thing instead
of a being capable of using language, just as table legs and teapot
handles are gendered as body parts instead of things.
This reminds me of the usage difference between British and American
English. The British say "my family are" or "the company are" while
Americans say "my family is" or "the company is."
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/29/2016 10:05 AM, Lawrence M.
Schoen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMBCAn__mfDDnLuGTpRXWR3adAK73dEtzoR4utrs_gwpe73oSw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:52 AM, SuStel <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p><i>A <b>mut</b> is not a thing capable of using language.
Its members are, but it is not. It is an abstraction.</i></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I see your point, but I respectfully disagree.
Metaphorically, we treat groups as possessing the attributes of
language users all the time. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> The Borg Collective express outrage at latest Star Trek
film.<br>
<br>
Barbers Union presses for more Bolians in new Trek series.<br>
<br>
Readers of Schoen's fiction ask if elephants can really talk.<br>
<br>
Translate any of the above or similar statements into Klingon
and the group is clearly understood to be made up of language
users and no one would blink twice at the figurative use of
extending that attribute to the group.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Voragh has just posted some evidence supporting my statement. <i>paq'batlh</i>
has <b>qorDu'wIj</b> instead of <b>*qorDu'wI'</b>. <i>paq'batlh</i>,
KGT, and Klingon Monopoly have <b>tuqlIj</b> and <b>tuqmaj</b>
and <b>tuqmey </b>and even <b>tuqmeyraj </b>instead of <b>*tuqlI'</b>
and <b>*tuqma'</b> and <b>tuqpu'</b><b> </b>and <b>*tuqpu'ra'</b><b>.</b></p>
<p>We also recently got the word <b>Dojmey</b><i> mass, masses,
multitude</i> which is never <b>*Dojpu',</b> even when
referring only to people, though in this case it may be that the
word <b>Doj</b> is inherently gendered as a thing instead of a
being capable of using language, just as table legs and teapot
handles are gendered as body parts instead of things.</p>
<p>This reminds me of the usage difference between British and
American English. The British say "my family are" or "the company
are" while Americans say "my family is" or "the company is."<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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