[108606] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Hoch context law' puS construction
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Tue Dec 27 09:29:20 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <88f668f7-0c63-8ff1-80fc-f1397f149e42@trimboli.name>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 16:29:17 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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ok, I understand your comments.
however, let me ask you something further on this subject..
as we said, there are two kinds of law' puS constructions; the comparative
and the superlative (which utilizes the {Hoch}).
I understand the issues, which arise when at the superlative version of the
law' puS, we provide context to the {Hoch}. And I really liked the way you
described, of working around these issues by the use of {-'e'}.
but if our intention is to use the law' puS in its comparative form, then
would you accept in the formula: {A X law' B X puS}, the {B} (singular or
plural) being in relation to a {Hoch} (either before, or after) ?
with our intention being to form a comparative, would you accept {A X law'
Hoch B(mey) X puS}, or {A X law' B(mey) Hoch X puS} ?
or do you think that the above would/could be confusing ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
SuvwI'pu'qoq Hol tughojmoHta'mo' Satlho'
On 27 Dec 2016 4:14 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 12/27/2016 6:26 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> lets assume a simple sentence:
>
> la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
> the greatest commander of them all
>
> Can the {Hoch} have context ? And if you wonder what I mean, here it is:
>
> la' Dun law' jogh Hoch la'pu' Dun puS
> the greatest commander of all commanders of the quadrant
>
> la' Dun law' Hoch la'pu' vIghompu'bogh Dun puS
> the greatest commander of all commanders I have met
>
> HoSDaj ngay'Daj je Dun law' Hoch novpu' HoS ngay' je Dun puS
> his power and glory were greater than the power and glory of all aliens
>
> are the above sentences correct ?
>
>
> Common wisdom says they are. I have begun to question common wisdom on
> this.
>
> I think there are two distinct *law'/puS* constructions, disregarding the
> numerous variations we've gotten over the years: the comparative and the
> superlative. I have begun to think that the superlative is invariant in its
> B noun phrase: *A Q **law' Hoch** Q **puS,* and nothing but *Hoch* can be
> in the B position for it to remain superlative.
>
> Our only example of how to give context to the superlative is our old
> friend from *Star Trek V:* *qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS**
> you would be the greatest warrior in the galaxy.* Notice that this is not *qIbDaq
> SoH Dun law' Hoch SuvwI'pu' Dun puS** you would be greater than all the
> warriors in the galaxy.* This latter is not a superlative, it is a
> comparative, and it kind of assumes that the addressee is not actually one
> of "all warriors." You might stick a *latlh* in there to signify *other*
> warriors, but the point remains: this is not actually a superlative.
>
> Okrand used the topic suffix to provide the context. Let's do that with
> your examples.
>
>
> *jogh la'pu''e' la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS **the commander is the greatest
> quadrant commander*
>
>
> *la'pu''e' vIghompu'bogh la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS **the commander is the
> greatest commander I have met*
>
>
> *novpu' HoS'e' ngay''e' je ghaH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS **his alien power
> and glory are the greatest*
>
> (And remember that *great* here means *wonderful,* not *large.*)
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">ok, I understand your comments.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">however, let me ask you something further on this subje=
ct..</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">as we said, there a=
re two kinds of law' puS constructions; the comparative and the superla=
tive (which utilizes the {Hoch}).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">I understand the issues, which arise when at the superlative vers=
ion of the law' puS, we provide context to the {Hoch}. And I really lik=
ed the way you described, of working around these issues by the use of {-&#=
39;e'}.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">but if our i=
ntention is to use the law' puS in its comparative form, then would you=
accept in the formula: {A X law' B X puS}, the {B} (singular or plural=
) being in relation to a {Hoch} (either before, or after) ?</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">with our intention being to form a co=
mparative, would you accept=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">{A =
X law' Hoch B(mey) X puS}, or=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:sa=
ns-serif">{A X law' B(mey) Hoch X puS} ?</span></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<font face=3D"sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"=
sans-serif">or do you think that the above would/could be confusing ?<br></=
font><br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">qunnoH jan pu=
qloD<br>ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'<br>SuvwI'pu'qoq Ho=
l tughojmoHta'mo' Satlho'</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 27 Dec 2016 4:14 pm, "SuStel&=
quot; <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<div class=3D"m_7140224521545577616moz-cite-prefix">On 12/27/2016 6:26 =
AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<pre>lets assume a simple sentence:
la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
the greatest commander of them all
Can the {Hoch} have context ? And if you wonder what I mean, here it is:
la' Dun law' jogh Hoch la'pu' Dun puS
the greatest commander of all commanders of the quadrant
la' Dun law' Hoch la'pu' vIghompu'bogh Dun puS
the greatest commander of all commanders I have met
HoSDaj ngay'Daj je Dun law' Hoch novpu' HoS ngay' je Dun pu=
S
his power and glory were greater than the power and glory of all aliens
are the above sentences correct ?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Common wisdom says they are. I have begun to question common
wisdom on this.</p>
<p>I think there are two distinct <b>law'/puS</b> constructions,
disregarding the numerous variations we've gotten over the years:
the comparative and the superlative. I have begun to think that
the superlative is invariant in its B noun phrase: <i><b>A Q </b></i>=
<b>law'
Hoch</b><i><b> Q </b></i><b>puS,</b> and nothing but <b>Hoch</b>
can be in the B position for it to remain superlative.</p>
<p>Our only example of how to give context to the superlative is our
old friend from <i>Star Trek V:</i> <b>qIbDaq SuvwI''e' S=
oH Dun
law' Hoch Dun puS</b><i> you would be the greatest warrior in
the galaxy.</i> Notice that this is not <b>qIbDaq SoH Dun law'
Hoch SuvwI'pu' Dun puS</b><i> you would be greater than all=
the
warriors in the galaxy.</i> This latter is not a superlative, it
is a comparative, and it kind of assumes that the addressee is not
actually one of "all warriors." You might stick a <b>latlh<=
/b> in
there to signify <i>other</i> warriors, but the point remains:
this is not actually a superlative.</p>
<p>Okrand used the topic suffix to provide the context. Let's do
that with your examples.</p>
<p><b>jogh la'pu''e' la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS<=
br>
</b><i>the commander is the greatest quadrant commander</i></p>
<p><b>la'pu''e' vIghompu'bogh la' Dun law' =
Hoch Dun puS<br>
</b><i>the commander is the greatest commander I have met</i></p>
<p><b>novpu' HoS'e' ngay''e' je ghaH Dun law=
9; Hoch Dun puS<br>
</b><i>his alien power and glory are the greatest</i></p>
<p>(And remember that <i>great</i> here means <i>wonderful,</i>
not <i>large.</i>)<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"m_7140224521545577616moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_7140224521545577616moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trim=
boli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
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