[108605] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Hoch context law' puS construction
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Tue Dec 27 09:14:14 2016
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:13:40 -0500
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On 12/27/2016 6:26 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> lets assume a simple sentence:
>
> la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
> the greatest commander of them all
>
> Can the {Hoch} have context ? And if you wonder what I mean, here it is:
>
> la' Dun law' jogh Hoch la'pu' Dun puS
> the greatest commander of all commanders of the quadrant
>
> la' Dun law' Hoch la'pu' vIghompu'bogh Dun puS
> the greatest commander of all commanders I have met
>
> HoSDaj ngay'Daj je Dun law' Hoch novpu' HoS ngay' je Dun puS
> his power and glory were greater than the power and glory of all aliens
>
> are the above sentences correct ?
Common wisdom says they are. I have begun to question common wisdom on this.
I think there are two distinct *law'/puS* constructions, disregarding
the numerous variations we've gotten over the years: the comparative and
the superlative. I have begun to think that the superlative is invariant
in its B noun phrase: /*A Q */*law' Hoch*/*Q */*puS,* and nothing but
*Hoch* can be in the B position for it to remain superlative.
Our only example of how to give context to the superlative is our old
friend from /Star Trek V:/ *qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun
puS*/you would be the greatest warrior in the galaxy./ Notice that this
is not *qIbDaq SoH Dun law' Hoch SuvwI'pu' Dun puS*/you would be greater
than all the warriors in the galaxy./ This latter is not a superlative,
it is a comparative, and it kind of assumes that the addressee is not
actually one of "all warriors." You might stick a *latlh* in there to
signify /other/ warriors, but the point remains: this is not actually a
superlative.
Okrand used the topic suffix to provide the context. Let's do that with
your examples.
*jogh la'pu''e' la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
*/the commander is the greatest quadrant commander/
*la'pu''e' vIghompu'bogh la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
*/the commander is the greatest commander I have met/
*novpu' HoS'e' ngay''e' je ghaH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
*/his alien power and glory are the greatest/
(And remember that /great/ here means /wonderful,/ not /large./)
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/27/2016 6:26 AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cKDtjWfkiNR83KxfF_gvjpxEB5A244ObKECcKYGRsiotA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">lets assume a simple sentence:
la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
the greatest commander of them all
Can the {Hoch} have context ? And if you wonder what I mean, here it is:
la' Dun law' jogh Hoch la'pu' Dun puS
the greatest commander of all commanders of the quadrant
la' Dun law' Hoch la'pu' vIghompu'bogh Dun puS
the greatest commander of all commanders I have met
HoSDaj ngay'Daj je Dun law' Hoch novpu' HoS ngay' je Dun puS
his power and glory were greater than the power and glory of all aliens
are the above sentences correct ?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Common wisdom says they are. I have begun to question common
wisdom on this.</p>
<p>I think there are two distinct <b>law'/puS</b> constructions,
disregarding the numerous variations we've gotten over the years:
the comparative and the superlative. I have begun to think that
the superlative is invariant in its B noun phrase: <i><b>A Q </b></i><b>law'
Hoch</b><i><b> Q </b></i><b>puS,</b> and nothing but <b>Hoch</b>
can be in the B position for it to remain superlative.</p>
<p>Our only example of how to give context to the superlative is our
old friend from <i>Star Trek V:</i> <b>qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun
law' Hoch Dun puS</b><i> you would be the greatest warrior in
the galaxy.</i> Notice that this is not <b>qIbDaq SoH Dun law'
Hoch SuvwI'pu' Dun puS</b><i> you would be greater than all the
warriors in the galaxy.</i> This latter is not a superlative, it
is a comparative, and it kind of assumes that the addressee is not
actually one of "all warriors." You might stick a <b>latlh</b> in
there to signify <i>other</i> warriors, but the point remains:
this is not actually a superlative.</p>
<p>Okrand used the topic suffix to provide the context. Let's do
that with your examples.</p>
<p><b>jogh la'pu''e' la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS<br>
</b><i>the commander is the greatest quadrant commander</i></p>
<p><b>la'pu''e' vIghompu'bogh la' Dun law' Hoch Dun puS<br>
</b><i>the commander is the greatest commander I have met</i></p>
<p><b>novpu' HoS'e' ngay''e' je ghaH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS<br>
</b><i>his alien power and glory are the greatest</i></p>
<p>(And remember that <i>great</i> here means <i>wonderful,</i>
not <i>large.</i>)<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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