[102706] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Dec 1 11:44:46 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:44:30 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAMZYS2X5-kPBJFMEjrW01kEtKYj3nLyLQFxYAua8K48tjCOS_w@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Nick is rather skilled with Klingon. He translated all the rhyming =
iambic pentameter verse portions of Hamlet (about 2/3 of the text) into =
rhyming iambic pentameter Klingon, so he=E2=80=99s not merely talented. =
He=E2=80=99s scary.
Add that his first language was Greek. We were all anxious to hear what =
Klingon would sound like with an Australian accent, only to discover =
that he fell back to Greek when forming a Klingon accent, rendering =
several vowels indistinguishable from one another to most =
English/Klingon speaking ears, especially considering the astounding =
velocity of his speech.=20
When others spoke Klingon, we pulled out our dictionaries. When Nick =
spoke Klingon, we just stared and drooled. A few tossed their =
dictionaries over their shoulders, recognizing the futility of =
pretending to keep up.
So, yes, Nick could do a fine job of translating biblical text. Most of =
us can=E2=80=99t. I respect the project. As I said, it=E2=80=99s hard. =
VERY hard. I still think it=E2=80=99s not really useful for a person new =
to the language to start off rock climbing when they really need to =
crawl, then toddle, then walk, then run, then climb short, simple =
boulder routes, and eventually become a rock climber before taking on El =
Capitan's Nose at Yosemite.
SoHvaD Qatlhchugh mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey nap, vaj mughmeH Qu=E2=80=99 =
DawuqDI=E2=80=99, qaqbe=E2=80=99 lalDan nov, Qatlhchu=E2=80=99mo=E2=80=99.=
chaq Data=E2=80=99laH, =E2=80=98ach ghaytan Data=E2=80=99Ha=E2=80=99. =
Davonlu=E2=80=99. ghIq bImoghchoH. ghIq bImej.
bImejbe=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vImaS. mughmeH Qu=E2=80=99 nap =
yIwIv. laHlIj yIDub.
tlhIngan Hol vIghojchoHDI=E2=80=99, mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey QaQ vIlaDDI=E2=80=
=99 Hol vIyajchoH. Qatlhbe=E2=80=99 mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey QaQ. nap. Daj. =
laHwIj vIDub.
Qatlh mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey vIchenmoHDI=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98ej qechmey Huj =
vIDelDI=E2=80=99, jImISchoH =E2=80=98ej muyajHa=E2=80=99 Hoch. laHwIj =
vIDubHa=E2=80=99.
HelIj vIngeDmoH vIneH. vaj mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey naD vIghItlh =E2=80=98ej =
mutlheghmey naD DachenmoH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vItungHa=E2=80=99.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> The Gospel According to Mark is the largest book of The Bible to be =
translated so far.
> Interestingly enough, it was translated from Greek to Klingon by an =
atheist.
>=20
> Presumably, Nick Nicholas wasn't swayed to match his translation to a =
specific sect's doctrine, which IMO, gives us a better translation.
>=20
> As coordinator of the RTTP (Religious Text Translation Project) I =
realize that the number of bilingual Greek/Klingon atheists in the world =
is small.
> If someone wants to use an English (or French, or German) text as =
their base, I'd be okay with that.
> I would not be okay with a machine translation or anything just =
cobbled together; or slapdash as it was put earlier.
>=20
> Beginners probably shouldn't take on any large translation project; =
let them figure out how to translate their own words first.
> But I see no reason to suggest they don't discuss any specific topic, =
if that's what they want to discuss.
>=20
> Sure, there are easier topics to tackle; but if we have the vocabulary =
to tackle Mark...
>=20
> ~naHQun
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com =
<mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > As an honest atheist, the term =E2=80=9Csaint=E2=80=9D is an alien =
word to me, and it=E2=80=99s notable that it=E2=80=99s an English word =
and I=E2=80=99m a native English speaker. So, how are you going to =
translate that into Klingon if you can=E2=80=99t really explain it to me =
in English?
> >
> > I really think you might as well try to translate the term =
=E2=80=9Creplicator=E2=80=9D in the Star Trek universe into D=E2=80=99nai,=
a language of a fictional race that doesn=E2=80=99t have replicators in =
their universe. Or maybe translate the term =E2=80=9CHoly Grail=E2=80=9D =
to a language that belongs to a culture that has no religion and no =
concept of =E2=80=9Ccup=E2=80=9D and doesn=E2=80=99t intake any =
substance that doesn=E2=80=99t require chewing. It=E2=80=99s like trying =
to come up with vocabulary for discussing the engineering concepts =
behind support bras that =E2=80=9Clift and separate=E2=80=9D to a =
culture of intelligent fungus who have no concept of engineering and =
have no experience with breasts to be lifted or separated, and no idea =
why anyone would want them lifted or separated.
> >
> > Or maybe take on the role of mattress salesman, trying to explain to =
a Klingon the advantages of memory foam, ignoring the simple fact that =
Klingons prefer to sleep on hard, cold surfaces.
> >
> > There are so many other things to talk about in the language for =
which the language is well equipped. I really think you are starting off =
in a direction for which you are poorly equipped, if this language is =
your tool. You=E2=80=99d have to be exceptionally well skilled; more =
skilled than I am, and I=E2=80=99ve been using this language since =
qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch.
> >
> > I suggest that you build your skill in the language taking on less =
challenging topics of translation, and then, years from now, once you =
have grown strong and confident in your ability to translate simpler =
things, perhaps return to your quest to translate religious texts into =
Klingon. Otherwise, you will be overly dependent upon the kindness of =
strangers to do most of your work for you.
> >
> > There have been two attempts, to my knowledge, at bible translation =
into Klingon. One was slapdash, working from an English version of the =
bible, satisfying the author and not really anybody else, and the other, =
a more scholarly, academic attempt working from original language texts =
that was never finished. It=E2=80=99s hard. VERY hard. It=E2=80=99s not =
really appropriate for a new student of the language. Unless you want to =
create a second slapdash project that garners very little respect =
because it is so badly done.
> >
> > I know this sounds sarcastic. It sounds like an anti-religious rant. =
While some of that is true, because I have spent enough years subjected =
to disrespect for my own religious beliefs, resolving that by deciding =
that this stuff is personal and doesn=E2=80=99t really need public =
discussion any more than one=E2=80=99s sex life, at the root of my =
message here is a truth worthy of note:
> >
> > Religion is not an appropriate topic of translation for unskilled =
beginners trying to learn the language. So, if you really are trying to =
learn the language, you honestly would be better served working on some =
other topic until you already have enough skills to answer the questions =
you now ask others, because there are no short answers. It is not the =
case that someone can answer a few questions, give you some vocabulary, =
and then you can go off and translate the stuff you apparently want to =
translate.
> >
> > It=E2=80=99s simply not going to work that way. You need another =
approach.
> >
> > pItlh
> > lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Anthony Appleyard =
<a.appleyard@btinternet.com <mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I understood that a saint was a Christian who in early times did =
something recognized as very holy, not merely "a member of the church, a =
fellow believer or follower".
> >
> > Some saints were the first man who successfully preached =
Christiuanity in an area, e.g. St. Patrick in Ireland, or St.David in =
Wales.
> >
> > Some saints were martyrs for their faith, e.g. St.Stephen who was =
stoned to death.
> >
> > ----Original message----
> > =46rom : nahqun@gmail.com <mailto:nahqun@gmail.com>
> > Date : 01/12/2015 - 12:09 (GMTST)
> > To : tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org =
<mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
> > Subject : Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:32 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com =
<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've been trying in vain,to find ways to express the following =
words
> > > in Klingon :
> > >
> > > bless (v)
> > > saint (n)
> > > sacred,to be sacred
> > > holy,to be holy
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any ideas ?
> > >
> >
> > A saint is a member of the church, a fellow believer or follower.
> > While I've seen {quvwI'pu'} used here before, and used it myself, =
you may want to consider playing around with
> > {chuD} people, kin, member of the same group or tribe or clan
> > {tuqnIgh} a member of one's house
> > {vInDa'} compatriot, community member, cohort, fellow citizen
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> ~Michael Roney, Jr.
> Freelance Translator
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_AC08E9B4-94B3-419F-AAE5-D249DF2D5030
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Nick is rather skilled with Klingon. He =
translated all the rhyming iambic pentameter verse portions of Hamlet =
(about 2/3 of the text) into rhyming iambic pentameter Klingon, so =
he=E2=80=99s not merely talented. He=E2=80=99s scary.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Add that his first =
language was Greek. We were all anxious to hear what Klingon would sound =
like with an Australian accent, only to discover that he fell back to =
Greek when forming a Klingon accent, rendering several vowels =
indistinguishable from one another to most English/Klingon speaking =
ears, especially considering the astounding velocity of his =
speech. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">When others spoke Klingon, we pulled out our dictionaries. =
When Nick spoke Klingon, we just stared and drooled. A few tossed their =
dictionaries over their shoulders, recognizing the futility of =
pretending to keep up.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So, yes, Nick could do a fine job of translating biblical =
text. Most of us can=E2=80=99t. I respect the project. As I said, it=E2=80=
=99s hard. VERY hard. I still think it=E2=80=99s not really useful for a =
person new to the language to start off rock climbing when they really =
need to crawl, then toddle, then walk, then run, then climb short, =
simple boulder routes, and eventually become a rock climber before =
taking on El Capitan's Nose at Yosemite.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">SoHvaD Qatlhchugh mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey =
nap, vaj mughmeH Qu=E2=80=99 DawuqDI=E2=80=99, qaqbe=E2=80=99 lalDan =
nov, Qatlhchu=E2=80=99mo=E2=80=99. chaq Data=E2=80=99laH, =E2=80=98ach =
ghaytan Data=E2=80=99Ha=E2=80=99. Davonlu=E2=80=99. ghIq bImoghchoH. =
ghIq bImej.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">bImejbe=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vImaS. mughmeH Qu=E2=80=99=
nap yIwIv. laHlIj yIDub.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">tlhIngan Hol vIghojchoHDI=E2=80=99, mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey QaQ =
vIlaDDI=E2=80=99 Hol vIyajchoH. Qatlhbe=E2=80=99 mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey =
QaQ. nap. Daj. laHwIj vIDub.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Qatlh mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey =
vIchenmoHDI=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98ej qechmey Huj vIDelDI=E2=80=99, jImISchoH =
=E2=80=98ej muyajHa=E2=80=99 Hoch. laHwIj vIDubHa=E2=80=99.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">HelIj vIngeDmoH vIneH. =
vaj mu=E2=80=99tlheghmey naD vIghItlh =E2=80=98ej mutlheghmey naD =
DachenmoH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vItungHa=E2=80=99.</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
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-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 1, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Michael Roney, Jr. <<a =
href=3D"mailto:nahqun@gmail.com" class=3D"">nahqun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The Gospel According to Mark is the largest book =
of The Bible to be translated so far.<br class=3D"">Interestingly =
enough, it was translated from Greek to Klingon by an atheist.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Presumably, Nick Nicholas wasn't swayed to =
match his translation to a specific sect's doctrine, which IMO, gives us =
a better translation.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As coordinator of the RTTP (Religious Text Translation =
Project) I realize that the number of bilingual Greek/Klingon atheists =
in the world is small.</div><div class=3D"">If someone wants to use an =
English (or French, or German) text as their base, I'd be okay with =
that.</div><div class=3D"">I would not be okay with a machine =
translation or anything just cobbled together; or slapdash as it was put =
earlier.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Beginners probably shouldn't take on any large translation =
project; let them figure out how to translate their own words =
first.</div><div class=3D"">But I see no reason to suggest they don't =
discuss any specific topic, if that's what they want to =
discuss.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sure, =
there are easier topics to tackle; but if we have the vocabulary to =
tackle Mark...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">~naHQun</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:35 AM, =
Will Martin <<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">> As an honest atheist, the term =E2=80=9Csaint=E2=80=9D =
is an alien word to me, and it=E2=80=99s notable that it=E2=80=99s an =
English word and I=E2=80=99m a native English speaker. So, how are you =
going to translate that into Klingon if you can=E2=80=99t really explain =
it to me in English?<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> I really =
think you might as well try to translate the term =E2=80=9Creplicator=E2=80=
=9D in the Star Trek universe into D=E2=80=99nai, a language of a =
fictional race that doesn=E2=80=99t have replicators in their universe. =
Or maybe translate the term =E2=80=9CHoly Grail=E2=80=9D to a language =
that belongs to a culture that has no religion and no concept of =
=E2=80=9Ccup=E2=80=9D and doesn=E2=80=99t intake any substance that =
doesn=E2=80=99t require chewing. It=E2=80=99s like trying to come up =
with vocabulary for discussing the engineering concepts behind support =
bras that =E2=80=9Clift and separate=E2=80=9D to a culture of =
intelligent fungus who have no concept of engineering and have no =
experience with breasts to be lifted or separated, and no idea why =
anyone would want them lifted or separated.<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">> Or maybe take on the role of mattress salesman, trying =
to explain to a Klingon the advantages of memory foam, ignoring the =
simple fact that Klingons prefer to sleep on hard, cold surfaces.<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> There are so many other things to =
talk about in the language for which the language is well equipped. I =
really think you are starting off in a direction for which you are =
poorly equipped, if this language is your tool. You=E2=80=99d have to be =
exceptionally well skilled; more skilled than I am, and I=E2=80=99ve =
been using this language since qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch.<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> I suggest that you build your skill =
in the language taking on less challenging topics of translation, and =
then, years from now, once you have grown strong and confident in your =
ability to translate simpler things, perhaps return to your quest to =
translate religious texts into Klingon. Otherwise, you will be overly =
dependent upon the kindness of strangers to do most of your work for =
you.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> There have been two attempts, =
to my knowledge, at bible translation into Klingon. One was slapdash, =
working from an English version of the bible, satisfying the author and =
not really anybody else, and the other, a more scholarly, academic =
attempt working from original language texts that was never finished. =
It=E2=80=99s hard. VERY hard. It=E2=80=99s not really appropriate for a =
new student of the language. Unless you want to create a second slapdash =
project that garners very little respect because it is so badly done.<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> I know this sounds sarcastic. It =
sounds like an anti-religious rant. While some of that is true, because =
I have spent enough years subjected to disrespect for my own religious =
beliefs, resolving that by deciding that this stuff is personal and =
doesn=E2=80=99t really need public discussion any more than one=E2=80=99s =
sex life, at the root of my message here is a truth worthy of note:<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> Religion is not an appropriate topic =
of translation for unskilled beginners trying to learn the language. So, =
if you really are trying to learn the language, you honestly would be =
better served working on some other topic until you already have enough =
skills to answer the questions you now ask others, because there are no =
short answers. It is not the case that someone can answer a few =
questions, give you some vocabulary, and then you can go off and =
translate the stuff you apparently want to translate.<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> It=E2=80=99s simply not going to work =
that way. You need another approach.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">>=
pItlh<br class=3D"">> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> On Dec 1, 2015, at =
8:55 AM, Anthony Appleyard <<a =
href=3D"mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com" =
class=3D"">a.appleyard@btinternet.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D"">><br=
class=3D"">> I understood that a saint was a Christian who in early =
times did something recognized as very holy, not merely "a member of the =
church, a fellow believer or follower".<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">> Some saints were the first man who successfully preached =
Christiuanity in an area, e.g. St. Patrick in Ireland, or St.David in =
Wales.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> Some saints were martyrs =
for their faith, e.g. St.Stephen who was stoned to death.<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> ----Original message----<br =
class=3D"">> =46rom : <a href=3D"mailto:nahqun@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">nahqun@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">> Date : 01/12/2015 - =
12:09 (GMTST)<br class=3D"">> To : <a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" =
class=3D"">tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br class=3D"">> =
Subject : Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:32 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<br class=3D"">> ><br class=3D"">> > I've been trying =
in vain,to find ways to express the following words<br class=3D"">> =
> in Klingon :<br class=3D"">> ><br class=3D"">> > bless =
(v)<br class=3D"">> > saint (n)<br class=3D"">> > sacred,to =
be sacred<br class=3D"">> > holy,to be holy<br class=3D"">> =
><br class=3D"">> > Does anyone have any ideas ?<br =
class=3D"">> ><br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> A saint is a =
member of the church, a fellow believer or follower.<br class=3D"">> =
While I've seen {quvwI'pu'} used here before, and used it myself, you =
may want to consider playing around with<br class=3D"">> {chuD} =
people, kin, member of the same group or tribe or clan<br class=3D"">> =
{tuqnIgh} a member of one's house<br class=3D"">> {vInDa'} =
compatriot, community member, cohort, fellow citizen<br class=3D"">><br=
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">> =
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">> <a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">> <a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">> =
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">> <a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">> <a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">~Michael Roney, Jr.<br class=3D"">Freelance =
Translator<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra">
</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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