[102705] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Roney, Jr.)
Tue Dec 1 10:33:34 2015
In-Reply-To: <7763075E-593A-43F9-A1AA-285EC9DE893A@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:33:18 -0500
From: "Michael Roney, Jr." <nahqun@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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The Gospel According to Mark is the largest book of The Bible to be
translated so far.
Interestingly enough, it was translated from Greek to Klingon by an atheist=
.
Presumably, Nick Nicholas wasn't swayed to match his translation to a
specific sect's doctrine, which IMO, gives us a better translation.
As coordinator of the RTTP (Religious Text Translation Project) I realize
that the number of bilingual Greek/Klingon atheists in the world is small.
If someone wants to use an English (or French, or German) text as their
base, I'd be okay with that.
I would not be okay with a machine translation or anything just cobbled
together; or slapdash as it was put earlier.
Beginners probably shouldn't take on any large translation project; let
them figure out how to translate their own words first.
But I see no reason to suggest they don't discuss any specific topic, if
that's what they want to discuss.
Sure, there are easier topics to tackle; but if we have the vocabulary to
tackle Mark...
~naHQun
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> As an honest atheist, the term =E2=80=9Csaint=E2=80=9D is an alien word t=
o me, and it=E2=80=99s
notable that it=E2=80=99s an English word and I=E2=80=99m a native English =
speaker. So, how
are you going to translate that into Klingon if you can=E2=80=99t really ex=
plain it
to me in English?
>
> I really think you might as well try to translate the term =E2=80=9Crepli=
cator=E2=80=9D
in the Star Trek universe into D=E2=80=99nai, a language of a fictional rac=
e that
doesn=E2=80=99t have replicators in their universe. Or maybe translate the =
term
=E2=80=9CHoly Grail=E2=80=9D to a language that belongs to a culture that h=
as no religion
and no concept of =E2=80=9Ccup=E2=80=9D and doesn=E2=80=99t intake any subs=
tance that doesn=E2=80=99t
require chewing. It=E2=80=99s like trying to come up with vocabulary for di=
scussing
the engineering concepts behind support bras that =E2=80=9Clift and separat=
e=E2=80=9D to a
culture of intelligent fungus who have no concept of engineering and have
no experience with breasts to be lifted or separated, and no idea why
anyone would want them lifted or separated.
>
> Or maybe take on the role of mattress salesman, trying to explain to a
Klingon the advantages of memory foam, ignoring the simple fact that
Klingons prefer to sleep on hard, cold surfaces.
>
> There are so many other things to talk about in the language for which
the language is well equipped. I really think you are starting off in a
direction for which you are poorly equipped, if this language is your tool.
You=E2=80=99d have to be exceptionally well skilled; more skilled than I am=
, and
I=E2=80=99ve been using this language since qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=
=99DIch.
>
> I suggest that you build your skill in the language taking on less
challenging topics of translation, and then, years from now, once you have
grown strong and confident in your ability to translate simpler things,
perhaps return to your quest to translate religious texts into Klingon.
Otherwise, you will be overly dependent upon the kindness of strangers to
do most of your work for you.
>
> There have been two attempts, to my knowledge, at bible translation into
Klingon. One was slapdash, working from an English version of the bible,
satisfying the author and not really anybody else, and the other, a more
scholarly, academic attempt working from original language texts that was
never finished. It=E2=80=99s hard. VERY hard. It=E2=80=99s not really appro=
priate for a new
student of the language. Unless you want to create a second slapdash
project that garners very little respect because it is so badly done.
>
> I know this sounds sarcastic. It sounds like an anti-religious rant.
While some of that is true, because I have spent enough years subjected to
disrespect for my own religious beliefs, resolving that by deciding that
this stuff is personal and doesn=E2=80=99t really need public discussion an=
y more
than one=E2=80=99s sex life, at the root of my message here is a truth wort=
hy of
note:
>
> Religion is not an appropriate topic of translation for unskilled
beginners trying to learn the language. So, if you really are trying to
learn the language, you honestly would be better served working on some
other topic until you already have enough skills to answer the questions
you now ask others, because there are no short answers. It is not the case
that someone can answer a few questions, give you some vocabulary, and then
you can go off and translate the stuff you apparently want to translate.
>
> It=E2=80=99s simply not going to work that way. You need another approach=
.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com=
>
wrote:
>
> I understood that a saint was a Christian who in early times did
something recognized as very holy, not merely "a member of the church, a
fellow believer or follower".
>
> Some saints were the first man who successfully preached Christiuanity in
an area, e.g. St. Patrick in Ireland, or St.David in Wales.
>
> Some saints were martyrs for their faith, e.g. St.Stephen who was stoned
to death.
>
> ----Original message----
> From : nahqun@gmail.com
> Date : 01/12/2015 - 12:09 (GMTST)
> To : tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> Subject : Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:32 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've been trying in vain,to find ways to express the following words
> > in Klingon :
> >
> > bless (v)
> > saint (n)
> > sacred,to be sacred
> > holy,to be holy
> >
> > Does anyone have any ideas ?
> >
>
> A saint is a member of the church, a fellow believer or follower.
> While I've seen {quvwI'pu'} used here before, and used it myself, you may
want to consider playing around with
> {chuD} people, kin, member of the same group or tribe or clan
> {tuqnIgh} a member of one's house
> {vInDa'} compatriot, community member, cohort, fellow citizen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
--
~Michael Roney, Jr.
Freelance Translator
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<div dir=3D"ltr">The Gospel According to Mark is the largest book of The Bi=
ble to be translated so far.<br>Interestingly enough, it was translated fro=
m Greek to Klingon by an atheist.<br><br>Presumably, Nick Nicholas wasn'=
;t swayed to match his translation to a specific sect's doctrine, which=
IMO, gives us a better translation.<div><br></div><div>As coordinator of t=
he RTTP (Religious Text Translation Project) I realize that the number of b=
ilingual Greek/Klingon atheists in the world is small.</div><div>If someone=
wants to use an English (or French, or German) text as their base, I'd=
be okay with that.</div><div>I would not be okay with a machine translatio=
n or anything just cobbled together; or slapdash as it was put earlier.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Beginners probably shouldn't take on any large tr=
anslation project; let them figure out how to translate their own words fir=
st.</div><div>But I see no reason to suggest they don't discuss any spe=
cific topic, if that's what they want to discuss.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Sure, there are easier topics to tackle; but if we have the vocabulary =
to tackle Mark...</div><div><br>~naHQun</div><div><br><br>On Tue, Dec 1, 20=
15 at 9:35 AM, Will Martin <<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com"=
>lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>> As an honest athe=
ist, the term =E2=80=9Csaint=E2=80=9D is an alien word to me, and it=E2=80=
=99s notable that it=E2=80=99s an English word and I=E2=80=99m a native Eng=
lish speaker. So, how are you going to translate that into Klingon if you c=
an=E2=80=99t really explain it to me in English?<br>><br>> I really t=
hink you might as well try to translate the term =E2=80=9Creplicator=E2=80=
=9D in the Star Trek universe into D=E2=80=99nai, a language of a fictional=
race that doesn=E2=80=99t have replicators in their universe. Or maybe tra=
nslate the term =E2=80=9CHoly Grail=E2=80=9D to a language that belongs to =
a culture that has no religion and no concept of =E2=80=9Ccup=E2=80=9D and =
doesn=E2=80=99t intake any substance that doesn=E2=80=99t require chewing. =
It=E2=80=99s like trying to come up with vocabulary for discussing the engi=
neering concepts behind support bras that =E2=80=9Clift and separate=E2=80=
=9D to a culture of intelligent fungus who have no concept of engineering a=
nd have no experience with breasts to be lifted or separated, and no idea w=
hy anyone would want them lifted or separated.<br>><br>> Or maybe tak=
e on the role of mattress salesman, trying to explain to a Klingon the adva=
ntages of memory foam, ignoring the simple fact that Klingons prefer to sle=
ep on hard, cold surfaces.<br>><br>> There are so many other things t=
o talk about in the language for which the language is well equipped. I rea=
lly think you are starting off in a direction for which you are poorly equi=
pped, if this language is your tool. You=E2=80=99d have to be exceptionally=
well skilled; more skilled than I am, and I=E2=80=99ve been using this lan=
guage since qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch.<br>><br>> I sugge=
st that you build your skill in the language taking on less challenging top=
ics of translation, and then, years from now, once you have grown strong an=
d confident in your ability to translate simpler things, perhaps return to =
your quest to translate religious texts into Klingon. Otherwise, you will b=
e overly dependent upon the kindness of strangers to do most of your work f=
or you.<br>><br>> There have been two attempts, to my knowledge, at b=
ible translation into Klingon. One was slapdash, working from an English ve=
rsion of the bible, satisfying the author and not really anybody else, and =
the other, a more scholarly, academic attempt working from original languag=
e texts that was never finished. It=E2=80=99s hard. VERY hard. It=E2=80=99s=
not really appropriate for a new student of the language. Unless you want =
to create a second slapdash project that garners very little respect becaus=
e it is so badly done.<br>><br>> I know this sounds sarcastic. It sou=
nds like an anti-religious rant. While some of that is true, because I have=
spent enough years subjected to disrespect for my own religious beliefs, r=
esolving that by deciding that this stuff is personal and doesn=E2=80=99t r=
eally need public discussion any more than one=E2=80=99s sex life, at the r=
oot of my message here is a truth worthy of note:<br>><br>> Religion =
is not an appropriate topic of translation for unskilled beginners trying t=
o learn the language. So, if you really are trying to learn the language, y=
ou honestly would be better served working on some other topic until you al=
ready have enough skills to answer the questions you now ask others, becaus=
e there are no short answers. It is not the case that someone can answer a =
few questions, give you some vocabulary, and then you can go off and transl=
ate the stuff you apparently want to translate.<br>><br>> It=E2=80=99=
s simply not going to work that way. You need another approach.<br>><br>=
> pItlh<br>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br>><br>><br>><br>>=
On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Anthony Appleyard <<a href=3D"mailto:a.appl=
eyard@btinternet.com">a.appleyard@btinternet.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>=
> I understood that a saint was a Christian who in early times did somet=
hing recognized as very holy, not merely "a member of the church, a fe=
llow believer or follower".<br>><br>> Some saints were the first=
man who successfully preached Christiuanity in an area, e.g. St. Patrick i=
n Ireland, or St.David in Wales.<br>><br>> Some saints were martyrs f=
or their faith, e.g. St.Stephen who was stoned =C2=A0to death.<br>><br>&=
gt; ----Original message----<br>> From : <a href=3D"mailto:nahqun@gmail.=
com">nahqun@gmail.com</a><br>> Date : 01/12/2015 - 12:09 (GMTST)<br>>=
To : <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">tlhingan-hol=
@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>> Subject : Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religiou=
s terminology<br>><br>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:32 AM, qunnoQ HoD &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br=
>> ><br>> > I've been trying in vain,to find ways to expres=
s the following words<br>> > in Klingon :<br>> ><br>> > b=
less (v)<br>> > saint (n)<br>> > sacred,to be sacred<br>> &g=
t; holy,to be holy<br>> ><br>> > Does anyone have any ideas ?<b=
r>> ><br>><br>> A saint is a member of the church, a fellow bel=
iever or follower.<br>> While I've seen {quvwI'pu'} used her=
e before, and used it myself, you may want to consider playing around with<=
br>> {chuD} people, kin, member of the same group or tribe or clan<br>&g=
t; {tuqnIgh} a member of one's house<br>> {vInDa'} compatriot, c=
ommunity member, cohort, fellow citizen<br>><br>><br>><br>> ___=
____________________________________________<br>> Tlhingan-hol mailing l=
ist<br>> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a=
><br>> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">htt=
p://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>><br>><br>><=
br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Tlhingan-ho=
l mailing list<br>> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br>> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhing=
an-hol">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>><br><b=
r><br><br>--<br>~Michael Roney, Jr.<br>Freelance Translator<br><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">
</div></div></div>
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