[102399] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : Sentences as objects
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Wed Nov 18 13:00:23 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAG84SOtSw9J3D0ZcJ2=wk0C1=9JiNbT6e=aE65aeaQi3fFFZPw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:00:05 -0500
To: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Keep in mind that for an English speaker, changing the meaning of a =
prefix like {vI-} when applied with the suffix {-lu=E2=80=99} is =
complex, for a Klingon speaker, it=E2=80=99s not complicated at all. =
It=E2=80=99s just the way the language works.
When I talk about complexity, I=E2=80=99m not talking about the amount =
of work an English speaker has to go through to speak Klingon. I=E2=80=99m=
talking about the tendency to try to pile a lot of meaning into one =
sentence. Klingon speakers are much more likely to break up an English =
sentence with a complex set of relationships among its parts and express =
the same ideas with a series of separate, smaller, simpler sentences.
That really is the only kind of complexity I=E2=80=99m suggesting that =
one attempt to avoid. Individual Klingon sentences that contain too many =
words can become strikingly difficult to parse, and quite often breaking =
it down into smaller, simpler sentences results in much better =
communication, which is what we are after here.=20
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:23 AM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Will Martin =
<lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Another problem is that you are using the prefix shortcut with =
{=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as the direct object and =E2=80=9Cme=E2=80=9D as =
the indirect object, and I=E2=80=99ve never seen that done before, and =
I=E2=80=99m not sure I like it. It=E2=80=99s just another layer of =
complexity in a language that values directness and simplicity.
>=20
>=20
> Wouldn't it be more complex if the prefix trick had a list of =
exceptions? Using the prefix trick with {'e'} as the third-person direct =
object and "me" as the indirect object seems like a straightforward =
application of the idea. (For me, the real complexity here is in =
combining the prefix trick with the different rules for prefixes with =
{-lu'}, bending {vI-} all the way from "I verb" to "someone verbs it for =
me".)
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Keep in mind that for an English speaker, =
changing the meaning of a prefix like {vI-} when applied with the suffix =
{-lu=E2=80=99} is complex, for a Klingon speaker, it=E2=80=99s not =
complicated at all. It=E2=80=99s just the way the language =
works.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When I =
talk about complexity, I=E2=80=99m not talking about the amount of work =
an English speaker has to go through to speak Klingon. I=E2=80=99m =
talking about the tendency to try to pile a lot of meaning into one =
sentence. Klingon speakers are much more likely to break up an English =
sentence with a complex set of relationships among its parts and express =
the same ideas with a series of separate, smaller, simpler =
sentences.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That =
really is the only kind of complexity I=E2=80=99m suggesting that one =
attempt to avoid. Individual Klingon sentences that contain too many =
words can become strikingly difficult to parse, and quite often breaking =
it down into smaller, simpler sentences results in much better =
communication, which is what we are after here. </div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:23 AM, nIqolay Q <<a =
href=3D"mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com" class=3D"">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:59 AM, =
Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Another problem is that you are using =
the prefix shortcut with {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as the direct object and =
=E2=80=9Cme=E2=80=9D as the indirect object, and I=E2=80=99ve never seen =
that done before, and I=E2=80=99m not sure I like it. It=E2=80=99s just =
another layer of complexity in a language that values directness and =
simplicity.</div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Wouldn't it be more complex if the =
prefix trick had a list of exceptions? Using the prefix trick with {'e'} =
as the third-person direct object and "me" as the indirect object seems =
like a straightforward application of the idea. (For me, the real =
complexity here is in combining the prefix trick with the different =
rules for prefixes with {-lu'}, bending {vI-} all the way from "I verb" =
to "someone verbs it for me".)<br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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