[102362] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Tue Nov 17 12:36:08 2015
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>, "tlhingan-hol@kli.org"
<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:35:50 +0000
In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E05C358C25@xm-mbx-04-prod>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> I vaguely recall that Okrand liked this disambiguating use of {-'e'}
> in a relative clause when someone suggested it to him
Aye, Marc has said that is is "clever, right or wrong."
Source: http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt
LS: Somebody was asking about if you have two nouns that both have
{-'e'} on them, and they're conjoined with {je}, do you put the {-'e'} =
on
the {je} or on the nouns?
MO: Right. Can you topicalize a conjunction? I don't know... nah...
Though actually for me, one of the things that pleases me about all
this stuff is not so much when people talk about the details of the
language, although that's fine, is when they talk about language at
all. So this guy came up with this idea of putting {-'e'} at the end,
that's a very clever idea, right or wrong.
________________________________
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 18:19
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
I vaguely recall that Okrand liked this disambiguating use of {-'e'} in a r=
elative clause when someone suggested it to him, but I only found 4 example=
s of Okrand using it:
butlh ghajbogh nuv'e' yIHo'
Admire the person with dirt under his fingernails. TKW
yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam
chenmoHlu'pu'
this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless
the Unforgettable. S8
qorDu'Daj tuq 'oS Ha'quj'e' tuQbogh wo'rIv
The sash that Worf wears is a symbol of his family's house. S20
SaqSub'e' muSHa'bogh pawmeH leng qeylIS HuDmey Sal ghIq ghIr
And Kahless traveled to his beloved Saq'sub, over the mountains PB
nuH'e' qengbogh mangghomvam luDel 'e' ra' molor, lujang
maS'e' loQ So'be'bogh QIb lurur
Molor asks them what weapons this army carries, they reply,
shaped as the crescent moon. PB
It's not grammatically required, but it is good Klingon style - particularl=
y in longer sentences.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
From: Will Martin [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 10:45 AM
On this mailing list, it's also been used in relative clauses to make clear=
which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative clause and t=
he main clause, as in {QIpqu' Qanqor tIchbogh nuv'e'.} "The person who insu=
lts Krankor is very stupid." Without the {-'e'}, you could mistakenly think=
that meant "Krankor, who is insulted by the person, is stupid," which woul=
d be an unwise statement to make in the company of Krankor's friends.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure if we've ever seen a canon example of Okrand using =
{-'e'} in this way. I'd sorely miss it if it were ever declared a bad use o=
f {-'e'}, but I don't think Okrand himself has ever made a position clear o=
n this.
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<p>> I vaguely recall that Okrand liked this disambiguating use of {-=
216;e’}</p>
<p>> in a relative clause when someone suggested it to him<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Aye, Marc has said that is is "clever, right or wrong."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Source: <a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt">=
http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt</a><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre>LS: Somebody was asking about if you have two nouns that both have=0A=
{-'e'} on them, and they're conjoined with {je}, do you put the {-'e'} =
on=0A=
the {je} or on the nouns?=0A=
=0A=
MO: Right. Can you topicalize a conjunction? I don't know... nah...=0A=
Though actually for me, one of the things that pleases me about all=0A=
this stuff is not so much when people talk about the details of the=0A=
language, although that's fine, is when they talk about language at=0A=
all. So this guy came up with this idea of putting {-'e'} at the end,=
=0A=
that's a very clever idea, right or wrong.</pre>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Steven Boozer <sb=
oozer@uchicago.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 17, 2015 18:19<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">I vaguely recall=
that Okrand liked this disambiguating use of {-‘e’} in a relat=
ive clause when someone suggested it to him, but I only found 4 examples of=
Okrand using it:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"> </span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">butlh ghajbog=
h nuv'e' yIHo'
</span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Admire the perso=
n with dirt under his fingernails. TKW<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif; color:#44546A"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">yIntaHvIS qey=
lIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam</span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">chenmoHlu'pu'=
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">this sword of ho=
nor descends from the time of Kahless</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">the Unforgettabl=
e. <span style=3D"text-transform:uppercase">
S8<br>
<br>
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial"=
;,sans-serif; color:#44546A"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">qorDu'Daj tuq=
'oS Ha'quj'e' tuQbogh wo'rIv</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"=
>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">The sash that Wo=
rf wears is a symbol of his family's house.
<span style=3D"text-transform:uppercase">S20<br>
<br>
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial"=
;,sans-serif; color:#44546A"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier; color:#C00000=
">SaqSub'e' muSHa'bogh pawmeH leng qeylIS HuDmey Sal ghIq ghIr</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">
</span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">And Kahless trav=
eled to his beloved
<i>Saq'sub</i>, over the mountains PB<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif; color:#44546A"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"=
;; color:#C00000">nuH'e' qengbogh mangghomvam luDel 'e' ra' molor, lujang</=
span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"=
;; color:#C00000">maS'e' loQ So'be'bogh QIb lurur</span></b><b><span style=
=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">
</span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
Molor asks them what weapons this army carries, they reply,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
shaped as the crescent moon. PB<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif; color:#44546A"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"A=
rial",sans-serif; color:#44546A">It’s not grammatically required=
, but it is good Klingon style – particularly in longer sentences.</s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"A=
rial",sans-serif; color:#44546A"> </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri",sans-serif; color:black">--</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri",sans-serif; color:black">Voragh</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri",sans-serif; color:black">Ca'Non Master of the Klingons</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"A=
rial",sans-serif; color:#44546A"> </span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Will Martin [mailto:lojmitti=
7wi7nuv@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 17, 2015 10:45 AM<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On this mailing list, it’s also been used in r=
elative clauses to make clear which noun is the noun that participates in b=
oth the relative clause and the main clause, as in {QIpqu’ Qanqor tIc=
hbogh nuv’e’.} “The person who insults Krankor
is very stupid.” Without the {-‘e’}, you could mistakenl=
y think that meant “Krankor, who is insulted by the person, is stupid=
,” which would be an unwise statement to make in the company of Krank=
or’s friends.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Meanwhile, I’m not sure if we’ve ever se=
en a canon example of Okrand using {-‘e’} in this way. I’=
d sorely miss it if it were ever declared a bad use of {-‘e’}, =
but I don’t think Okrand himself has ever made a position clear on th=
is.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546A"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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