[102361] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Tue Nov 17 12:33:30 2015
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>, "tlhingan-hol@kli.org"
<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:33:12 +0000
In-Reply-To: <F1F69049-057C-4749-9A89-875AB20D3B1B@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> Maybe I=92m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I can=92t com=
e
> up with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of severa=
l
> verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be used
> in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropriate affixes are limited, and al=
l
> the ones I can come up with are verb suffixes.
All of the Type-5 noun suffixes make sense to me, and many have been seen i=
n canon.
=3D=3D=3D 'e'=3D=3D=3D
TKD includes the sentence {lujpu' jIH'e'} as "It is *I* who have failed."
I believe it's generally accepted that this should really be {jIlujpu' jIH'=
e'}, however.
When somebody wrongfully asks me {nuqneH?}, I like to reply (at least in my=
mind) with {pagh vIneH. nuq DaneH SoH'e'?}
I could also see it used in comparatives:
{tlhIH'e' Hul'Iq HoS law' Hoch HoS puS.}
=3D "Hul'q is the strongest of y'all."
ghaH'e' is used in paq'batlh:
{veng =91elDI=92 ghaH / pawpa=92 ghaH=92e=92 / paw lutDaj =91e=92 Sov qeylI=
S}
=3D "Upon entering the city, / Kahless knows his tale / Has preceded him."
paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 10, Stanza 1
=3D=3D=3D vaD =3D=3D=3D
This one is quite common. Canonical examples include:
{roD 'oHvaD juHqo' ponglu' neH.}
=3D "[It] is usually referred to as simply 'The Homeworld.'" (SkyBox 27)
{SoHvaD 'uQ wej vIqem.}
=3D "I'll bring you dinner number three." (CK)
{ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.}
=3D [It reminds him of his heritage.] (SkyBox 20)
=3D=3D=3D mo' =3D=3D=3D
No known examples that I'm aware of, but surely there might be conversation=
s where it's useful to say "...because of you." or some such (even though I=
think Klingons would often be more specific than that).
{bIHmo' jIjeSlaHbe'.}
=3D "Because of those, I can't participate."
(said by a peanut allergic in reference to the abundance of Snickers bars a=
t a convention)
=3D=3D=3D Daq =3D=3D=3D
A useful example would be {ghaHvaD nISwI' tIH yIbaH!} ("Shoot a disruptor b=
eam at him/her!")
{nuqDaq} is arguably a pronoun + Daq.
A canonical use:
{ghIq QavwI'chaj DuQchu' / qeylIS betleH / chaHDaq SiStaHvIS negh 'Iw}
=3D "The Kahless's bat'leth / Pierced the last of them, / Showered with the=
soldiers' blood."
paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 5
Also used in canon to describe proximity:
{SoHDaq Sum raS.}
=3D "The table is near you."
Source: http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt
=3D=3D=3D vo' =3D=3D=3D
{wa'Hu' chalqach yorDaq wIlDaq jItoSta'. 'oHvo' juHwIj vIleghlaH.}
=3D "I climbed to the spike at the top of the tower yesterday. I could see =
my house from there.
{maHvo' nIHlu'ta'! 'eywI'maaaaaa'!}
=3D "They stoles from us! Our preciousssss!"
Also used in canon:
{chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH.}
=3D "Maybe I'd like to buy something from you." (PK)
[Admittedly, this line is spoken by a Human.]
{qeylIS =91uchHa=92 =91ej ghaHvo=92 yIt}
=3D "He releases Kahless and walks away."
paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 1
{molor qIpmeH / wa' chap lo' qeylIS / 'ej ghaHvo' yIt.}
=3D "Kahless slaps Molor / With the back of his hand, / And walks away."
paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 22, Stanza 1
________________________________
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 17:45
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
Sorry.
Having seen this one go by a couple of times without comment, I have to jus=
t touch on one thing:
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com<mailto:qes=
lagh@hotmail.com>> wrote:
...
jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:
> cha' mu'tlheghmey tu'lu''a'?
jang je naHQun, jatlh:
> wa' mu'tlhegh 'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.
{chevmey}? {chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS jIH.
I see no justification for putting {-=91e=92} on {=91oH} here. If there wer=
e a subject of {=91oH}, as in {DujwIj =91oH Dujvetlh=92e=92}, then the subj=
ect noun would get {-=91e=92}, not the {=91oH}. Most of the time a noun wit=
h {-=91e=92} is placed among the words before the main clause, declaring th=
e topic of the sentence, as in {HoD=92e=92 QaQchu=92 Qanqor.} =93Considerin=
g captains, Krankor is perfectly good,=94 or =93Krankor is perfectly good a=
s a captain." We have canon for these uses.
On this mailing list, it=92s also been used in relative clauses to make cle=
ar which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative clause and=
the main clause, as in {QIpqu=92 Qanqor tIchbogh nuv=92e=92.} =93The perso=
n who insults Krankor is very stupid.=94 Without the {-=91e=92}, you could =
mistakenly think that meant =93Krankor, who is insulted by the person, is s=
tupid,=94 which would be an unwise statement to make in the company of Kran=
kor=92s friends.
Meanwhile, I=92m not sure if we=92ve ever seen a canon example of Okrand us=
ing {-=91e=92} in this way. I=92d sorely miss it if it were ever declared a=
bad use of {-=91e=92}, but I don=92t think Okrand himself has ever made a =
position clear on this.
Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=92 mu=92tlhegh =91oH=92e=92.} The=
re=92s no reason to put the {-=91e=92} there, and since it is a noun suffix=
used on a pronoun that is functioning as a verb, it appears to break the g=
rammar of the sentence as a whole. We know that we can put verb suffixes on=
pronouns when they are functioning as the verb =93to be=94, as in {naDev j=
IHtaH.} =93I am here.=94
I=92m trying to think of any condition in which a pronoun takes a noun suff=
ix=85 even when it=92s not being used as a verb=85 This is one of those thi=
ngs I=92ve never thought about before. It=92s somewhat refreshing. I don=92=
t run into grammatical points in Klingon that I=92ve never thought about be=
fore very often.
Maybe I=92m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I can=92t come =
up with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of several =
verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be used in=
Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropriate affixes are limited, and all th=
e ones I can come up with are verb suffixes.
Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that you understood that you,=
and you alone were the problem, I might say {bIqay=92 SoH=92e=92 neH jay=
=92!} but in that case, I=92m obviously not using {SoH} as a verb.
Mischievously, I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I coul=
d jokingly say, {=91oHtaH SoH=92e=92!} =93It=92s YOU.=94 But there=92s so m=
uch grammatically and idiomatically wrong with that. It would only be a jok=
e.
Sorry to go on so long. Drop the {-=91e=92} on {=91oH}. It really jumped ou=
t at me as wrong.
QeS 'utlh
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<p>> Maybe I=92m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I can=
=92t come</p>
<p>> up with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of =
several</p>
<p>> verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be=
used</p>
<p>> in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropriate affixes are limited, =
and all</p>
<p>> the ones I can come up with are verb suffixes.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>All of the Type-5 noun suffixes make sense to me, and many have been see=
n in canon.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>=3D=3D=3D 'e'=3D=3D=3D <br>
</p>
<p>TKD includes the sentence {lujpu' jIH'e'} as "It is *I* who have fa=
iled."<br>
I believe it's generally accepted that this should really be {jIlujpu' jIH'=
e'}, however.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>When somebody wrongfully asks me {nuqneH?}, I like to reply (at least in=
my mind) with {pagh vIneH. nuq DaneH SoH'e'?}</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I could also see it used in comparatives:<br>
<br>
{tlhIH'e' Hul'Iq HoS law' Hoch HoS puS.}</p>
<p>=3D "Hul'q is the strongest of y'all."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>ghaH'e' is used in paq'batlh:<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
{veng =91elDI=92 ghaH / pawpa=92 ghaH=92e=92 / paw lutDaj =91e=92 Sov qeylI=
S}<br>
=3D "Upon entering the city, / Kahless knows his tale / Has preceded h=
im."<br>
paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 10, Stanza 1<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>=3D=3D=3D vaD =3D=3D=3D <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This one is quite common. Canonical examples include:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{roD 'oHvaD juHqo' ponglu' neH.}</p>
<p>=3D "[It] is usually referred to as simply 'The Homeworld.'" (=
SkyBox 27)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{SoHvaD 'uQ wej vIqem.}</p>
<p>=3D "I'll bring you dinner number three." (CK)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> {ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.}</p>
<p>=3D [It reminds him of his heritage.] (SkyBox 20)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>=3D=3D=3D mo' =3D=3D=3D <br>
</p>
<p>No known examples that I'm aware of, but surely there might be conversat=
ions where it's useful to say "...because of you." or some such (=
even though I think Klingons would often be more specific than that).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{bIHmo' jIjeSlaHbe'.}</p>
<p>=3D "Because of those, I can't participate."<br>
(said by a peanut allergic in reference to the abundance of Snickers bars a=
t a convention)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>=3D=3D=3D Daq =3D=3D=3D<br>
A useful example would be {ghaHvaD nISwI' tIH yIbaH!} ("Shoot a disrup=
tor beam at him/her!")</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{nuqDaq} is arguably a pronoun + Daq.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>A canonical use:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{ghIq QavwI'chaj DuQchu' / qeylIS betleH / chaHDaq SiStaHvIS negh =
'Iw}</p>
<p>=3D "The Kahless's bat'leth / Pierced the last of them, / Showered =
with the soldiers' blood."<br>
</p>
<p>paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 5<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Also used in canon to describe proximity:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> {SoHDaq Sum raS.}</p>
<p>=3D "The table is near you."<br>
Source: <a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt">htt=
p://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-holqed-07-4.txt</a><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>=3D=3D=3D vo' =3D=3D=3D</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{wa'Hu' chalqach yorDaq wIlDaq jItoSta'. 'oHvo' juHwIj vI=
leghlaH.}</p>
<p>=3D "I climbed to the spike at the top of the tower yesterday. I co=
uld see my house from there.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{maHvo' nIHlu'ta'! 'eywI'maaaaaa'!}</p>
<p>=3D "They stoles from us! Our preciousssss!"</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Also used in canon:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH.}</p>
<p>=3D "Maybe I'd like to buy something from you." (PK)<br>
[Admittedly, this line is spoken by a Human.]</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{qeylIS =91uchHa=92 =91ej ghaHvo=92 yIt}</p>
<p>=3D "He releases Kahless and walks away."</p>
<p>paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 1</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{molor qIpmeH / wa' chap lo' qeylIS / 'ej ghaHvo' yIt.}</p>
<p>=3D "Kahless slaps Molor / With the back of his hand, / And walks a=
way."</p>
<p>paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 22, Stanza 1<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Will Martin <lojm=
itti7wi7nuv@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 17, 2015 17:45<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>Sorry.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Having seen this one go by a couple of times without commen=
t, I have to just touch on one thing:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:s=
eparate; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Helvetica; font-style:normal; font-v=
ariant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:norma=
l; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; wid=
ows:2; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"">pItlh</div>
<div class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <<a href=3D"=
mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" class=3D"">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</=
div>
...<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:16px; f=
ont-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:n=
ormal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:<br class=3D"">
> cha' mu'tlheghmey tu'lu''a'?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">jang je naHQun, jatlh:<br class=3D"">
> wa' mu'tlhegh 'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
{chevmey}? {chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS jIH.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>I see no justification for putting {-=91e=92} on {=91oH} here. If ther=
e were a subject of {=91oH}, as in {DujwIj =91oH Dujvetlh=92e=92}, then the=
subject noun would get {-=91e=92}, not the {=91oH}. Most of the time a nou=
n with {-=91e=92} is placed among the words before the main
clause, declaring the topic of the sentence, as in {HoD=92e=92 QaQchu=92 Q=
anqor.} =93Considering captains, Krankor is perfectly good,=94 or =93Kranko=
r is perfectly good as a captain." We have canon for these uses.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>On this mailing list, it=92s also been used in relative clauses to mak=
e clear which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative claus=
e and the main clause, as in {QIpqu=92 Qanqor tIchbogh nuv=92e=92.} =93The =
person who insults Krankor is very stupid.=94
Without the {-=91e=92}, you could mistakenly think that meant =93Krankor, =
who is insulted by the person, is stupid,=94 which would be an unwise state=
ment to make in the company of Krankor=92s friends.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Meanwhile, I=92m not sure if we=92ve ever seen a canon example of Okra=
nd using {-=91e=92} in this way. I=92d sorely miss it if it were ever decla=
red a bad use of {-=91e=92}, but I don=92t think Okrand himself has ever ma=
de a position clear on this.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=92 mu=92tlhegh =91oH=92e=92.=
} There=92s no reason to put the {-=91e=92} there, and since it is a noun s=
uffix used on a pronoun that is functioning as a verb, it appears to break =
the grammar of the sentence as a whole. We know
that we can put verb suffixes on pronouns when they are functioning as the=
verb =93to be=94, as in {naDev jIHtaH.} =93I am here.=94</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>I=92m trying to think of any condition in which a pronoun takes a noun=
suffix=85 even when it=92s not being used as a verb=85 This is one of thos=
e things I=92ve never thought about before. It=92s somewhat refreshing. I d=
on=92t run into grammatical points in Klingon
that I=92ve never thought about before very often.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Maybe I=92m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I can=92t =
come up with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of sev=
eral verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be us=
ed in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but
appropriate affixes are limited, and all the ones I can come up with are v=
erb suffixes.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that you understood that=
you, and you alone were the problem, I might say {bIqay=92 SoH=92e=92 neH =
jay=92!} but in that case, I=92m obviously not using {SoH} as a verb.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Mischievously, I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I=
could jokingly say, {=91oHtaH SoH=92e=92!} =93It=92s YOU.=94 But there=92s=
so much grammatically and idiomatically wrong with that. It would only be =
a joke.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Sorry to go on so long. Drop the {-=91e=92} on {=91oH}. It really jump=
ed out at me as wrong.</div>
<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:16px; f=
ont-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:n=
ormal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">QeS 'utlh</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:16px; font-style:n=
ormal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line=
-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-trans=
form:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; d=
isplay:inline!important">_______________________________________________</s=
pan><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:16px; font-style=
:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; li=
ne-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-tra=
nsform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:16px; font-style:n=
ormal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line=
-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-trans=
form:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; d=
isplay:inline!important">Tlhingan-hol
mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:=
16px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-sp=
acing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-inde=
nt:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:=
0px">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Cal=
ibri; font-size:16px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:n=
ormal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:=
start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:aut=
o; word-spacing:0px">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Calibri; font-size:16px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font=
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xt-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; w=
idows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
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hans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-sp=
ace:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/list=
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