[102363] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Nov 17 12:42:14 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:41:56 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAMZYS2VKzT5YmJzG0EVZ49iPJobCqQEp07OO+7wcKTddG2=o3A@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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There are very few here who have been writing to this list longer than I =
have, and I STILL frequently deal with public embarrassment for my =
blunders. Why should YOU have it easier? If you want to be embarrassed =
more times than I=E2=80=99ve been, you have your work cut out for you.
And I don=E2=80=99t intend to make it easier on you by somehow changing =
and being embarrassed for my errors less often from here out, either. =
No. During those years you spend trying to catch up with me, I=E2=80=99ll =
still be out there, making mistakes where no one has made mistakes =
before.
[cue the music]
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 17, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> No, you're absolutely right.
>=20
> I wrote it without {-'e'} at first, but it sounded wrong to my ear.
> After looking up {'oH} in my dictionary, it seems that almost all of =
the examples I have use {-'e'} on a noun after {'oH}, meaning that my =
ear is used to hearing {'oH} and {-'e'} together.
>=20
>=20
> On the positive side, I'm starting to write more without relying on my =
dictionary for every word.
> It's slightly embarrassing to make blunders such as this in public, =
but at least I'm learning from them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Will Martin =
<lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Sorry.
>=20
> Having seen this one go by a couple of times without comment, I have =
to just touch on one thing:
>=20
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com =
<mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>> ...
>> jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:
>> > cha' mu'tlheghmey tu'lu''a'?
>>=20
>> jang je naHQun, jatlh:
>> > wa' mu'tlhegh 'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.
>>=20
>> {chevmey}? {chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS jIH.
>=20
> I see no justification for putting {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98o=
H} here. If there were a subject of {=E2=80=98oH}, as in {DujwIj =E2=80=98=
oH Dujvetlh=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99}, then the subject noun would get =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, not the {=E2=80=98oH}. Most of the time a noun =
with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is placed among the words before the main =
clause, declaring the topic of the sentence, as in {HoD=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99=
QaQchu=E2=80=99 Qanqor.} =E2=80=9CConsidering captains, Krankor is =
perfectly good,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CKrankor is perfectly good as a =
captain." We have canon for these uses.
>=20
> On this mailing list, it=E2=80=99s also been used in relative clauses =
to make clear which noun is the noun that participates in both the =
relative clause and the main clause, as in {QIpqu=E2=80=99 Qanqor =
tIchbogh nuv=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} =E2=80=9CThe person who insults =
Krankor is very stupid.=E2=80=9D Without the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, you =
could mistakenly think that meant =E2=80=9CKrankor, who is insulted by =
the person, is stupid,=E2=80=9D which would be an unwise statement to =
make in the company of Krankor=E2=80=99s friends.
>=20
> Meanwhile, I=E2=80=99m not sure if we=E2=80=99ve ever seen a canon =
example of Okrand using {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} in this way. I=E2=80=99d =
sorely miss it if it were ever declared a bad use of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99=
}, but I don=E2=80=99t think Okrand himself has ever made a position =
clear on this.
>=20
> Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=E2=80=99 mu=E2=80=99tlhegh =
=E2=80=98oH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} There=E2=80=99s no reason to put the =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} there, and since it is a noun suffix used on a =
pronoun that is functioning as a verb, it appears to break the grammar =
of the sentence as a whole. We know that we can put verb suffixes on =
pronouns when they are functioning as the verb =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D, =
as in {naDev jIHtaH.} =E2=80=9CI am here.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m trying to think of any condition in which a pronoun takes =
a noun suffix=E2=80=A6 even when it=E2=80=99s not being used as a =
verb=E2=80=A6 This is one of those things I=E2=80=99ve never thought =
about before. It=E2=80=99s somewhat refreshing. I don=E2=80=99t run into =
grammatical points in Klingon that I=E2=80=99ve never thought about =
before very often.
>=20
> Maybe I=E2=80=99m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I =
can=E2=80=99t come up with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I =
can think of several verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, =
pronouns can be used in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropriate =
affixes are limited, and all the ones I can come up with are verb =
suffixes.
>=20
> Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that you understood that =
you, and you alone were the problem, I might say {bIqay=E2=80=99 =
SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 neH jay=E2=80=99!} but in that case, I=E2=80=99m =
obviously not using {SoH} as a verb.
>=20
> Mischievously, I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I =
could jokingly say, {=E2=80=98oHtaH SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99!} =E2=80=9CIt=E2=
=80=99s YOU.=E2=80=9D But there=E2=80=99s so much grammatically and =
idiomatically wrong with that. It would only be a joke.
>=20
> Sorry to go on so long. Drop the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98oH}=
. It really jumped out at me as wrong.
>=20
>> QeS 'utlh
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> ~Michael Roney, Jr.
> Freelance Translator
--Apple-Mail=_71C42611-A294-4A0F-AAB5-4B7F0875E5DF
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charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">There are very few here who have been writing =
to this list longer than I have, and I STILL frequently deal with public =
embarrassment for my blunders. Why should YOU have it easier? If you =
want to be embarrassed more times than I=E2=80=99ve been, you have your =
work cut out for you.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And I don=E2=80=99t intend to make it easier on you by =
somehow changing and being embarrassed for my errors less often from =
here out, either. No. During those years you spend trying to catch up =
with me, I=E2=80=99ll still be out there, making mistakes where no one =
has made mistakes before.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">[cue the music]</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 17, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <<a =
href=3D"mailto:nahqun@gmail.com" class=3D"">nahqun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">No, you're absolutely right.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I wrote it without {-'e'} at first, but =
it sounded wrong to my ear.</div><div class=3D"">After looking up {'oH} =
in my dictionary, it seems that almost all of the examples I have use =
{-'e'} on a noun after {'oH}, meaning that my ear is used to hearing =
{'oH} and {-'e'} together.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On the positive side, =
I'm starting to write more without relying on my dictionary for every =
word.</div><div class=3D"">It's slightly embarrassing to make blunders =
such as this in public, but at least I'm learning from them.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Will Martin =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Sorry.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Having seen this one go by a couple of =
times without comment, I have to just touch on one thing:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>...<span class=3D""><br=
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:<br class=3D"">> cha' mu'tlheghmey =
tu'lu''a'?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">jang je naHQun, jatlh:<br class=3D"">> wa' mu'tlhegh =
'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">{chevmey}? =
{chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS =
jIH.</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I see no justification =
for putting {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98oH} here. If there were =
a subject of {=E2=80=98oH}, as in {DujwIj =E2=80=98oH Dujvetlh=E2=80=99e=E2=
=80=99}, then the subject noun would get {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, not the =
{=E2=80=98oH}. Most of the time a noun with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is =
placed among the words before the main clause, declaring the topic of =
the sentence, as in {HoD=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 QaQchu=E2=80=99 Qanqor.} =
=E2=80=9CConsidering captains, Krankor is perfectly good,=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9CKrankor is perfectly good as a captain." We have canon for =
these uses.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On =
this mailing list, it=E2=80=99s also been used in relative clauses to =
make clear which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative =
clause and the main clause, as in {QIpqu=E2=80=99 Qanqor tIchbogh =
nuv=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} =E2=80=9CThe person who insults Krankor is very =
stupid.=E2=80=9D Without the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, you could =
mistakenly think that meant =E2=80=9CKrankor, who is insulted by the =
person, is stupid,=E2=80=9D which would be an unwise statement to make =
in the company of Krankor=E2=80=99s friends.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Meanwhile, I=E2=80=99m not sure if =
we=E2=80=99ve ever seen a canon example of Okrand using {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=
=99} in this way. I=E2=80=99d sorely miss it if it were ever declared a =
bad use of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, but I don=E2=80=99t think Okrand =
himself has ever made a position clear on this.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Meanwhile, I see no justification for =
{wa=E2=80=99 mu=E2=80=99tlhegh =E2=80=98oH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} =
There=E2=80=99s no reason to put the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} there, and =
since it is a noun suffix used on a pronoun that is functioning as a =
verb, it appears to break the grammar of the sentence as a whole. We =
know that we can put verb suffixes on pronouns when they are functioning =
as the verb =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D, as in {naDev jIHtaH.} =E2=80=9CI am =
here.=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m trying to think of any condition in which a =
pronoun takes a noun suffix=E2=80=A6 even when it=E2=80=99s not being =
used as a verb=E2=80=A6 This is one of those things I=E2=80=99ve never =
thought about before. It=E2=80=99s somewhat refreshing. I don=E2=80=99t =
run into grammatical points in Klingon that I=E2=80=99ve never thought =
about before very often.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Maybe I=E2=80=99m just having some kind of stuck mental =
function. I can=E2=80=99t come up with a reason to put a noun suffix on =
a pronoun. I can think of several verb suffixes that work, but no noun =
suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be used in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but =
appropriate affixes are limited, and all the ones I can come up with are =
verb suffixes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that you =
understood that you, and you alone were the problem, I might say =
{bIqay=E2=80=99 SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 neH jay=E2=80=99!} but in that =
case, I=E2=80=99m obviously not using {SoH} as a verb.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Mischievously, I guess =
if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I could jokingly say, =
{=E2=80=98oHtaH SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99!} =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s YOU.=E2=80=9D=
But there=E2=80=99s so much grammatically and idiomatically wrong with =
that. It would only be a joke.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sorry to go on so long. Drop the =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98oH}. It really jumped out at me as =
wrong.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">QeS 'utlh</div></div></div></div><span class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol =
mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">
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rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">~Michael Roney, Jr.<br class=3D"">Freelance =
Translator</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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