[102206] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Holt)
Wed Nov 11 13:30:50 2015
From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:30:32 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cK3wM4e_Nxw51ZG2F6YQQ4+XNEVmUJVbmoUN8ERHKyLnQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Consider, also, the use of {jay'} (TKD p 177).
janSIy
--- Original Message ---
From: "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Sent: November 11, 2015 11:08 AM
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
A moment of clarity
I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of the =
list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself. Thi=
s concerns something,which is well known to experienced klingonists,still i=
t remains something that newcomers may find hard to digest. At least i was =
finding hard to digest myself,until the following happened.
earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonidas' re=
sponse to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arms ; i was=
wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them" which i beli=
eve more or less almost everyone has heard of.
but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in klingon,somethi=
ng didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out the klingon tr=
anslation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the "feeling" of this p=
hrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* right.
but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things clearer=
in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way in a d=
ark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became clearer.
but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is "mol=
on lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't know anc=
ient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is as defia=
nt a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i have wo=
ndered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he heard it. let=
alone the look on the xerxes face..
but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak today,t=
he "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which in no way =
does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the original phras=
e did.
..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find all kin=
ds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that modern g=
reek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) feeling of=
the original phrase.
thinking all this,i asked myself..
does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon lave"=
,mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate in curren=
t greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingon would be=
in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be able to =
translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any other l=
anguage has to say. things don't work that way.
anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has its bea=
uty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inability to =
convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "deficiency" ; =
it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that languages are me=
ant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same way that individ=
ual people are always different compared to each other.
maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo in =
our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read him i=
n the original klingon.."
be that as it may..
SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
cpt qunnoQ
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<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma; c=
olor:black">Consider, also, the use of {jay'} (TKD p 177).=0A=
=0A=
janSIy=0A=
=0A=
--- Original Message ---=0A=
=0A=
From: "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun@gmail.com>=0A=
Sent: November 11, 2015 11:08 AM=0A=
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>=0A=
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity=0A=
=0A=
</pre>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
A moment of clarity<br>
<br>
I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of the =
list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself. Thi=
s concerns something,which is well known to experienced klingonists,still i=
t remains something that newcomers
may find hard to digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,unti=
l the following happened.<br>
<br>
earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonidas' re=
sponse to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arms ; i was=
wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them" wh=
ich i believe more or less almost everyone
has heard of.<br>
<br>
but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in klingon,somethi=
ng didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out the klingon tr=
anslation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the "feeling"=
of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just
didn't *feel* right.<br>
<br>
but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things clearer=
in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way in a d=
ark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became clearer.<b=
r>
<br>
but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.<br>
<br>
the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is &quo=
t;molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn'=
t know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* t=
hat this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly
be. In fact,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persia=
n's messenger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face.=
.
<br>
<br>
but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak today,t=
he "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them&qu=
ot; which in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression a=
s the original phrase did.
<br>
<br>
..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find all kin=
ds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that modern g=
reek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) feeling of=
the original phrase.<br>
<br>
thinking all this,i asked myself..<br>
<br>
does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon =
lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate=
in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingo=
n would be in a position of expressing this
phrase's feeling ?<br>
<br>
finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be able to =
translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any other l=
anguage has to say. things don't work that way.<br>
<br>
anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has its bea=
uty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inability to =
convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "deficienc=
y" ; it is rather a natural consequence
of the simple fact that languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant =
to be different,the same way that individual people are always different co=
mpared to each other.<br>
<br>
maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo in =
our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read =
him in the original klingon.."<br>
<br>
be that as it may..<br>
<br>
SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !<br>
ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !<br>
<br>
cpt qunnoQ<br>
<br>
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