[102156] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Karen Alessio)
Tue Nov 10 11:08:25 2015
In-Reply-To: <CALPi+eS1jSC2qZz0Mn8BWMZQ26ybJjDErtNhK-crgZZ_k49F2g@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:08:10 -0500
From: Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com>
To: qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net>
Cc: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I just joined the klingon groups there on FB... the only thing I see being
a privacy issue is that they are "open groups" which means anything you
post there can show up on friends' newsfeeds.... which i imagine can get
annoying for your friends. but a good workaround was suggested, to use a
special email address for signing up with no contacts in the address book,
and dont "friend" anyone non-klingon affiliated. I'm just using my regular
FB account, but my friends are mostly geeks too, and I hope they dont mind.
lol
On Nov 10, 2015 11:01 AM, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
> NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One only
> tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everythi=
ng
> about one's life. One has the control until one gives it up.
>
> To sign up for Facebook the only thing you have to give is a name and an
> email address. That's it. If you're really paranoid, create a new email
> account and use a fake name, then only join the Learn Klingon group and
> lock down everything else.
>
> You chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choose who to
> friend on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebook, not
> Facebook. If you don't want Facebook knowing something, don't tell
> Facebook!
>
> Sure Facebook can track what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the
> whole world with this mailing list because we make it public. If we are
> creating public information, why does it matter if a company uses it? The=
y
> could use it now.
>
> qurgh
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I understand that Facebook is the wave of the future, but I=E2=80=99d ju=
st like
>> to point out that by using it, one tosses all pretense of privacy to the
>> wind. We willingly give lots of personal information and links to all th=
e
>> people and groups we choose to associate with to a corporation with a
>> reputation for trying really hard to be as fascist as possible, backing =
off
>> only when there=E2=80=99s an outcry about something specific that they=
=E2=80=99ve done that
>> pisses off hundreds of thousands of people.
>>
>> Basically, the corporation has a psychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we=
are
>> objects to be manipulated for its profit and advantage with minimal conc=
ern
>> for our well-being as living entities. We provide them with data and wit=
h
>> connections. Some wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our
>> friends are, completely blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD t=
hem
>> that we are friends, or that we have mathematically derivable combinatio=
ns
>> of common friends that suggest that we should be associated with one
>> another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those associations to improve
>> the accuracy of their data.
>>
>> If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains
>> servers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated
>> with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a
>> corporation whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There are
>> people in China right now who are in prison for their political interest=
s
>> because Yahoo decided to hand over data the government asked for rather
>> than lose the profitable Chinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=E2=
=80=99t
>> consider that a reasonable business decision.
>>
>> So, I don=E2=80=99t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do=
what you
>> like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.
>>
>> I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes,
>> figuring that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a danc=
er
>> probably won=E2=80=99t land me in prison even in the future, unless the =
radical
>> Baptists take over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel ick=
y
>> and consider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.
>>
>> But hey, it=E2=80=99s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess tha=
t trumps
>> any concerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evil,
>> multi-national corporation for some future use over which we=E2=80=99ll =
have no
>> influence at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we=E2=80=99ll=
be dead by
>> then. No sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?
>>
>> pItlh
>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
>>>
>>>> One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't
>>>> enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on
>>> the archive, right here:
>>> www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
>>
>>
>> That's good info. Back when the BG was going strong we got at least 5000=
+
>> messages. The position seems to have died when we dropped down to around
>> 2000.
>>
>> I'd be interested to see membership levels over the same time period.
>> Unfortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of data.
>>
>>
>>> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, is it reall=
y
>>>> enough to warrant a new BG?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be
>>> someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even wi=
th
>>> only one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. Wha=
t
>>> can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
>>>
>>
>> True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after
>> helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way
>> more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" grou=
p.
>> If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then that
>> workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
>>
>>
>>
>>> We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a
>>> question and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. That's wh=
y we
>>> need a BG.
>>
>>
>> Except that when I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said
>> something along the lines of "It's good for them to get multiple answers=
,
>> then they know it's not being made up" so there appears to be counter
>> arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. I also think that multiple
>> different descriptions of the same thing is very helpful for a student, =
as
>> it gives them multiple view-points to look from. We also have enough peo=
ple
>> that each one of the four beginners that have recently raised their hand=
s
>> could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all the work on one person? =
If
>> the goal is to help people learn, then giving them one-on-one service se=
ems
>> like it would be them most efficient system.
>>
>>
>>
>>> People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many
>>> prefer facebook which they can use o their phone, instead of an email
>>> account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.
>>>
>>
>> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about mailing
>> lists: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using Windows 95 or
>> something!"
>>
>> Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem the=
y
>> prefer that format.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially
>>> archiving and searching treads.
>>
>>
>> Facebook groups have both archiving and searching. They do keyword
>> searching just like we do on the KLI site.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a group=
".
>>
>>
>> That argument was true for this list for many many many years. Just look
>> through the archives for all the spam. Also look through it for all the
>> "How do I get off this list?" messages from people not reading the intro
>> message. We also had to deal with people subscribing others to the list.=
At
>> least with Facebook you can see every person that is joining and they ha=
ve
>> to be approved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being =
the
>> BG might be easier on Facebook, since they could send a personalized
>> private message to each person as they join.
>>
>>
>>
>>> While the BG role has been very important in the past, perhaps we shoul=
d
>>>> look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that
>>> newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around"=
,
>>> someone to trust.
>>
>>
>> I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking
>> for someone to take on the running on this email list for over a year (w=
ith
>> no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you reall=
y
>> mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain things".
>> Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's nothing any o=
f
>> us could do about it.
>>
>> qurgh
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">I just joined the klingon groups there on FB... the only thi=
ng I see being a privacy issue is that they are "open groups" whi=
ch means anything you post there can show up on friends' newsfeeds.... =
which i imagine can get annoying for your friends. but a good workaround wa=
s suggested, to use a special email address for signing up with no contacts=
in the address book, and dont "friend" anyone non-klingon affili=
ated. I'm just using my regular FB account, but my friends are mostly g=
eeks too, and I hope they dont mind. lol</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 10, 2015 11:01 AM, "qurgh lungqIj&qu=
ot; <<a href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:=
<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv>NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One on=
ly tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everyth=
ing about one's life. One has the control until one gives it up.</div><=
div><br></div><div>To sign up for Facebook the only thing you have to give =
is a name and an email address. That's it. If you're really paranoi=
d, create a new email account and use a fake name, then only join the Learn=
Klingon group and lock down everything else.</div><div><br></div><div>You =
chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choose who to friend on =
Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebook, not Facebook. I=
f you don't want Facebook knowing something, don't tell Facebook!=
=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Sure Facebook can track what we say in =
and about Klingon, but so can the whole world with this mailing list becaus=
e we make it public. If we are creating public information, why does it mat=
ter if a company uses it? They could use it now.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div>qurgh</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gma=
il.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>I understand that Facebook is the wave of th=
e future, but I=E2=80=99d just like to point out that by using it, one toss=
es all pretense of privacy to the wind. We willingly give lots of personal =
information and links to all the people and groups we choose to associate w=
ith to a corporation with a reputation for trying really hard to be as fasc=
ist as possible, backing off only when there=E2=80=99s an outcry about some=
thing specific that they=E2=80=99ve done that pisses off hundreds of thousa=
nds of people.</div><div><br></div><div>Basically, the corporation has a ps=
ychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we are objects to be manipulated for its=
profit and advantage with minimal concern for our well-being as living ent=
ities. We provide them with data and with connections. Some wonder how Face=
book is so good at guessing who our friends are, completely blind to the si=
mple fact that our friends TOLD them that we are friends, or that we have m=
athematically derivable combinations of common friends that suggest that we=
should be associated with one another. Facebook then asks you to confirm t=
hose associations to improve the accuracy of their data.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maint=
ains servers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associat=
ed with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a corpora=
tion whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There are people in =
China right now who are in prison for their political interests because Yah=
oo decided to hand over data the government asked for rather than lose the =
profitable Chinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=E2=80=99t consider t=
hat a reasonable business decision.</div><div><br></div><div>So, I don=E2=
=80=99t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do what you like =
on Facebook. Do what you dare there.</div><div><br></div><div>I use it for =
one small part of my life, for promotional purposes, figuring that dancing =
is harmless enough that being identified as a dancer probably won=E2=80=99t=
land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical Baptists take ove=
r, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky and consider withd=
rawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.</div><div><br></div><div>But hey, it=
=E2=80=99s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess that trumps any c=
oncerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evil, multi-nati=
onal corporation for some future use over which we=E2=80=99ll have no influ=
ence at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we=E2=80=99ll be dead=
by then. No sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?</di=
v><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 =
AM, qurgh lungqIj <<a href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>qurgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><div><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, No=
v 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:levin=
ius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><span>Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't<br>
enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on the=
archive, right here:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum</a></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>That's good info. Back when the BG was go=
ing strong we got at least 5000+ messages. The position seems to have died =
when we dropped down to around 2000.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd be in=
terested to see membership levels over the same time period. Unfortunately =
we don't have access to any of that kind of data.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);b=
order-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">in activity due to qunnoQ and the =
new words has been great, is it really<br>
enough to warrant a new BG?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be someo=
ne appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even with only o=
ne newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What can happ=
en? A workless BG will not starve to death.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian&quo=
t; after helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have help=
ed way more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klin=
gon" group. If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload,=
then that workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.</=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">We've seen recentl=
y what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a question and either get t=
en answers at once, or none at all. That's=C2=A0 why we need a BG.</blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>Except that when I mentioned this same thing on=
Facebook, Qov said something along the lines of "It's good for th=
em to get multiple answers, then they know it's not being made up"=
so there appears to be counter arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. =
I also think that multiple different descriptions of the same thing is very=
helpful for a student, as it gives them multiple view-points to look from.=
We also have enough people that each one of the four beginners that have r=
ecently raised their hands could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all =
the work on one person? If the goal is to help people learn, then giving th=
em one-on-one service seems like it would be them most efficient system.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;b=
order-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many=
prefer facebook which they can use o=C2=A0 their phone, instead of an emai=
l account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Here's what a new student looking to =
learn Klingon said about mailing lists:=C2=A0"Wow, a mailing list - ma=
kes me feel like using Windows 95 or =C2=A0something!"</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would s=
eem they prefer that format.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;borde=
r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially arch=
iving and searching treads.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Facebook groups=
have both archiving and searching. They do keyword searching just like we =
do on the KLI site.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1=
px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex">Facebook group has over 900 members and adds mo=
re weekly).<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a =
group".</blockquote><div><br></div><div>That argument was true for thi=
s list for many many many years. Just look through the archives for all the=
spam. Also look through it for all the "How do I get off this list?&q=
uot; messages from people not reading the intro message. We also had to dea=
l with people subscribing others to the list. At least with Facebook you ca=
n see every person that is joining and they have to be approved, and spam i=
s quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being the BG might be easier on Fac=
ebook, since they could send a personalized private message to each person =
as they join.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">While the BG role has been very important in the pas=
t, perhaps we should<br>
look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so=
that newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always =
around", someone to trust.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have no i=
ssue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking for someo=
ne to take on the running on this email list for over a year (with no luck,=
so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you re=
ally mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain th=
ings". Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's =
nothing any of us could do about it.</div><div><br></div><div>qurgh</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div><span>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>__________________________=
_____________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
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