[102155] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qurgh lungqIj)
Tue Nov 10 11:01:41 2015
In-Reply-To: <181048AC-C5E2-4361-A0A4-B6F6E3F2E888@gmail.com>
From: qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:01:05 -0500
To: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============2551752779115161395==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e43866004a1052431d292
--047d7b2e43866004a1052431d292
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One only
tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everything
about one's life. One has the control until one gives it up.
To sign up for Facebook the only thing you have to give is a name and an
email address. That's it. If you're really paranoid, create a new email
account and use a fake name, then only join the Learn Klingon group and
lock down everything else.
You chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choose who to friend
on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebook, not
Facebook. If you don't want Facebook knowing something, don't tell
Facebook!
Sure Facebook can track what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the
whole world with this mailing list because we make it public. If we are
creating public information, why does it matter if a company uses it? They
could use it now.
qurgh
On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I understand that Facebook is the wave of the future, but I=E2=80=99d jus=
t like to
> point out that by using it, one tosses all pretense of privacy to the win=
d.
> We willingly give lots of personal information and links to all the peopl=
e
> and groups we choose to associate with to a corporation with a reputation
> for trying really hard to be as fascist as possible, backing off only whe=
n
> there=E2=80=99s an outcry about something specific that they=E2=80=99ve d=
one that pisses
> off hundreds of thousands of people.
>
> Basically, the corporation has a psychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we =
are
> objects to be manipulated for its profit and advantage with minimal conce=
rn
> for our well-being as living entities. We provide them with data and with
> connections. Some wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our
> friends are, completely blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD th=
em
> that we are friends, or that we have mathematically derivable combination=
s
> of common friends that suggest that we should be associated with one
> another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those associations to improve
> the accuracy of their data.
>
> If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains
> servers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated
> with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a
> corporation whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There are
> people in China right now who are in prison for their political interests
> because Yahoo decided to hand over data the government asked for rather
> than lose the profitable Chinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> consider that a reasonable business decision.
>
> So, I don=E2=80=99t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do =
what you
> like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.
>
> I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes, figurin=
g
> that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a dancer probabl=
y
> won=E2=80=99t land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical Ba=
ptists
> take over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky and
> consider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.
>
> But hey, it=E2=80=99s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess that=
trumps
> any concerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evil,
> multi-national corporation for some future use over which we=E2=80=99ll h=
ave no
> influence at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we=E2=80=99ll =
be dead by
> then. No sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
>>
>>> One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't
>>> enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.
>>>
>>
>> For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on
>> the archive, right here:
>> www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
>
>
> That's good info. Back when the BG was going strong we got at least 5000+
> messages. The position seems to have died when we dropped down to around
> 2000.
>
> I'd be interested to see membership levels over the same time period.
> Unfortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of data.
>
>
>> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, is it really
>>> enough to warrant a new BG?
>>>
>>
>> Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be
>> someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even wit=
h
>> only one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What
>> can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
>>
>
> True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after
> helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way
> more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" group=
.
> If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then that
> workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
>
>
>
>> We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a
>> question and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. That's why=
we
>> need a BG.
>
>
> Except that when I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said
> something along the lines of "It's good for them to get multiple answers,
> then they know it's not being made up" so there appears to be counter
> arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. I also think that multiple
> different descriptions of the same thing is very helpful for a student, a=
s
> it gives them multiple view-points to look from. We also have enough peop=
le
> that each one of the four beginners that have recently raised their hands
> could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all the work on one person? I=
f
> the goal is to help people learn, then giving them one-on-one service see=
ms
> like it would be them most efficient system.
>
>
>
>> People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to
>>>
>>
>> That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many
>> prefer facebook which they can use o their phone, instead of an email
>> account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.
>>
>
> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about mailing
> lists: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using Windows 95 or
> something!"
>
> Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem they
> prefer that format.
>
>
>>
>> Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially
>> archiving and searching treads.
>
>
> Facebook groups have both archiving and searching. They do keyword
> searching just like we do on the KLI site.
>
>
>
>> Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly).
>>>
>>
>> Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a group"=
.
>
>
> That argument was true for this list for many many many years. Just look
> through the archives for all the spam. Also look through it for all the
> "How do I get off this list?" messages from people not reading the intro
> message. We also had to deal with people subscribing others to the list. =
At
> least with Facebook you can see every person that is joining and they hav=
e
> to be approved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being t=
he
> BG might be easier on Facebook, since they could send a personalized
> private message to each person as they join.
>
>
>
>> While the BG role has been very important in the past, perhaps we should
>>> look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.
>>>
>>
>> I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that
>> newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around",
>> someone to trust.
>
>
> I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking
> for someone to take on the running on this email list for over a year (wi=
th
> no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you really
> mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain things".
> Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's nothing any of
> us could do about it.
>
> qurgh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
--047d7b2e43866004a1052431d292
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn=
't true! One only tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tel=
ls Facebook everything about one's life. One has the control until one =
gives it up.</div><div><br></div><div>To sign up for Facebook the only thin=
g you have to give is a name and an email address. That's it. If you=
9;re really paranoid, create a new email account and use a fake name, then =
only join the Learn Klingon group and lock down everything else.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>You chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choos=
e who to friend on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebo=
ok, not Facebook. If you don't want Facebook knowing something, don'=
;t tell Facebook!=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Sure Facebook can trac=
k what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the whole world with this ma=
iling list because we make it public. If we are creating public information=
, why does it matter if a company uses it? They could use it now.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>qurgh</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <span dir=3D=
"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lo=
jmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>I understand that Facebook is=
the wave of the future, but I=E2=80=99d just like to point out that by usi=
ng it, one tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind. We willingly give lo=
ts of personal information and links to all the people and groups we choose=
to associate with to a corporation with a reputation for trying really har=
d to be as fascist as possible, backing off only when there=E2=80=99s an ou=
tcry about something specific that they=E2=80=99ve done that pisses off hun=
dreds of thousands of people.</div><div><br></div><div>Basically, the corpo=
ration has a psychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we are objects to be mani=
pulated for its profit and advantage with minimal concern for our well-bein=
g as living entities. We provide them with data and with connections. Some =
wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our friends are, completely =
blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD them that we are friends, or=
that we have mathematically derivable combinations of common friends that =
suggest that we should be associated with one another. Facebook then asks y=
ou to confirm those associations to improve the accuracy of their data.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>If one of the governments where this multinational co=
rporation maintains servers decides to persecute political undesirables and=
those associated with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, an=
d for a corporation whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There=
are people in China right now who are in prison for their political intere=
sts because Yahoo decided to hand over data the government asked for rather=
than lose the profitable Chinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=E2=80=
=99t consider that a reasonable business decision.</div><div><br></div><div=
>So, I don=E2=80=99t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do w=
hat you like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.</div><div><br></div><div>=
I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes, figuring =
that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a dancer probably =
won=E2=80=99t land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical Bapt=
ists take over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky and c=
onsider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>But hey, it=E2=80=99s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess that=
trumps any concerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evi=
l, multi-national corporation for some future use over which we=E2=80=99ll =
have no influence at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we=E2=80=
=99ll be dead by then. No sense showing any caution now, before that happen=
s, right?</div><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Nov 10, 2=
015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <<a href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><di=
v><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr">=
<<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a=
>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bo=
rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrie=
b qurgh lungqIj:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't<br>
enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on the=
archive, right here:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum</a></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>That's good info. Back when the BG was go=
ing strong we got at least 5000+ messages. The position seems to have died =
when we dropped down to around 2000.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd be in=
terested to see membership levels over the same time period. Unfortunately =
we don't have access to any of that kind of data.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);b=
order-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">in activity due to qunnoQ and the =
new words has been great, is it really<br>
enough to warrant a new BG?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be someo=
ne appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even with only o=
ne newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What can happ=
en? A workless BG will not starve to death.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian&quo=
t; after helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have help=
ed way more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klin=
gon" group. If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload,=
then that workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.</=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">We've seen recentl=
y what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a question and either get t=
en answers at once, or none at all. That's=C2=A0 why we need a BG.</blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>Except that when I mentioned this same thing on=
Facebook, Qov said something along the lines of "It's good for th=
em to get multiple answers, then they know it's not being made up"=
so there appears to be counter arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. =
I also think that multiple different descriptions of the same thing is very=
helpful for a student, as it gives them multiple view-points to look from.=
We also have enough people that each one of the four beginners that have r=
ecently raised their hands could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all =
the work on one person? If the goal is to help people learn, then giving th=
em one-on-one service seems like it would be them most efficient system.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;b=
order-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many=
prefer facebook which they can use o=C2=A0 their phone, instead of an emai=
l account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Here's what a new student looking to =
learn Klingon said about mailing lists:=C2=A0"Wow, a mailing list - ma=
kes me feel like using Windows 95 or =C2=A0something!"</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would s=
eem they prefer that format.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;borde=
r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially arch=
iving and searching treads.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Facebook groups=
have both archiving and searching. They do keyword searching just like we =
do on the KLI site.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1=
px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex">Facebook group has over 900 members and adds mo=
re weekly).<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a =
group".</blockquote><div><br></div><div>That argument was true for thi=
s list for many many many years. Just look through the archives for all the=
spam. Also look through it for all the "How do I get off this list?&q=
uot; messages from people not reading the intro message. We also had to dea=
l with people subscribing others to the list. At least with Facebook you ca=
n see every person that is joining and they have to be approved, and spam i=
s quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being the BG might be easier on Fac=
ebook, since they could send a personalized private message to each person =
as they join.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">While the BG role has been very important in the pas=
t, perhaps we should<br>
look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so=
that newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always =
around", someone to trust.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have no i=
ssue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking for someo=
ne to take on the running on this email list for over a year (with no luck,=
so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you re=
ally mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain th=
ings". Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's =
nothing any of us could do about it.</div><div><br></div><div>qurgh</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div><span class=3D"=
">
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>__________________________=
_____________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
--047d7b2e43866004a1052431d292--
--===============2551752779115161395==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============2551752779115161395==--
