[101912] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Concerning the {'e'} topic suffix
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Wed Nov 4 13:31:26 2015
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>, tlhIngan Hol mailing list
<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:29:10 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cLr2ajx=RLXc2=wnYsu7uptPg6PpzS7GmOgE0abQUySRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I believe you've confused the function of -'e' with the function of -bogh, =
possibly because the two often occur together.
-'e' marks a noun as the topic of a phrase, and is required for the subject=
of {ghaH}, {chaH}, {'oH} and {bIH}.
When you say {puqpu''e' qIp yaS.}, you're saying "The officer(s) hit the CH=
ILDREN.", with emphasis on the children.
When you say {puqpu' qIp yaS'e'.}, you're saying "The OFFICER(S) hit the ch=
ildren.", with emphasis on the officer(s).
When using a sentence with -bogh (relative suffix; functions as "who", "whi=
ch" and "that" in the sense that you're describing) and both a subject and =
an object, -'e' is sometimes used to distinguish which is being referred to=
.
{voDleH luchotta'bogh nuvpu''e' vIlegh.}
=3D "I saw the people (nuvpu''e') who murdered the Emperor (voDleH)."
{voDleH'e' luchotta'bogh nuvpu' vIlegh.}
=3D "I saw the emperor (voDleH'e') who was murdered by the people (nuvpu').=
"
Sometimes this isn't necessary, though:
{voDleH luchotta'bogh nuvpu' wIlegh.}
=3D "We saw the emperor who was murdered by the people."
(wI- specifies a singular object, and nuvpu' is plural, so it must be refer=
ring to the emperor, not the people)
{voDleH luchotta'bogh nuvpu' DIlegh.}
=3D "I saw the people who murdered the Emperor."
(Same reasoning as above, except DI- specifies a plural object)
________________________________
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 19:11
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] Concerning the {'e'} topic suffix
having just finished studying the pronouns,along with the {'e'} topic suffi=
x,I can't help but wonder the following..
lets take these two examples,along with their given translations :
puqpu' chaH qama'pu"e' The prisoners are children.
pa'DajDaq ghaHtaH la"e' The commander is in his quarters.
As i understood the {'e'} means <<that>> ; so the above translations should=
be
the prisoners that are children (implying that there are prisoners too,who =
aren't children)
the commander that is in his quarters (implying that there is another comma=
nder as well,who isn't in his quarters)
alternatively (because i didn't quite understand,to whom the {'e'} is suppo=
sed to be shoved) the aforementioned translations could be modified as..
the children that are prisoners (implying that there are children,who aren'=
t prisoners)
the quarters that have the commander within them (implying that there are q=
uarters.that don't have a commander inside)
I'm confused by all these alternate possibilities.. Could someone please en=
lighten me ?
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<p>I believe you've confused the function of -'e' with the function of -bog=
h, possibly because the two often occur together.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>-'e' marks a noun as the topic of a phrase, and is required for the subj=
ect of {ghaH}, {chaH}, {'oH} and {bIH}.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>When you say {puqpu''e' qIp yaS.}, you're saying "The officer(s) hi=
t the CHILDREN.", with emphasis on the children.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>When you say {puqpu' qIp yaS'e'.}, you're saying "The OFFICER(S) hi=
t the children.", with emphasis on the officer(s).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>When using a sentence with -bogh (relative suffix; functions as "wh=
o", "which" and "that" in the sense that you're de=
scribing) and both a subject and an object, -'e' is sometimes used to disti=
nguish which is being referred to.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{voDleH luchotta'bogh nuvpu''e' vIlegh.}</p>
<p>=3D "I saw the people (nuvpu''e') who murdered the Emperor (voDleH)=
."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{voDleH'e' luchotta'bogh nuvpu' vIlegh.}</p>
<p>=3D "I saw the emperor (voDleH'e') who was murdered by the people (=
nuvpu')."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Sometimes this isn't necessary, though:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{voDleH luchotta'bogh nuvpu' wIlegh.}</p>
<p>=3D "We saw the emperor who was murdered by the people."</p>
<p>(wI- specifies a singular object, and nuvpu' is plural, so it must be re=
ferring to the emperor, not the people)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>{voDleH luchotta'bogh nuvpu' DIlegh.}<br>
</p>
<p>=3D "I saw the people who murdered the Emperor."</p>
<p>(Same reasoning as above, except DI- specifies a plural object) <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> qunnoQ HoD <mihk=
oun@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 4, 2015 19:11<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] Concerning the {'e'} topic suffix</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>having just finished studying the pronouns,along with the {'e'} topic =
suffix,I can't help but wonder the following..<br>
<br>
</div>
lets take these two examples,along with their given translations :<br>
<br>
puqpu' chaH qama'pu"e' The prisoners are children.<br>
pa'DajDaq ghaHtaH la"e' The commander is in his quarters.<br>
<br>
</div>
As i understood the {'e'} means <<that>> ; so the above transla=
tions should be <br>
<br>
</div>
the prisoners that are children (implying that there are prisoners too,who =
aren't children)<br>
</div>
the commander that is in his quarters (implying that there is another comma=
nder as well,who isn't in his quarters)<br>
<br>
</div>
alternatively (because i didn't quite understand,to whom the {'e'} is suppo=
sed to be shoved) the aforementioned translations could be modified as..<br=
>
<br>
</div>
the children that are prisoners (implying that there are children,who aren'=
t prisoners)<br>
</div>
the quarters that have the commander within them (implying that there are q=
uarters.that don't have a commander inside)<br>
<br>
</div>
I'm confused by all these alternate possibilities.. Could someone please en=
lighten me ?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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