[101828] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Defiant
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Mon Nov 2 14:31:23 2015
In-Reply-To: <596467865.1027535.1446490570233.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:31:08 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> You might also consider translating the name Defiant directly as
*tlhIvwI'* "the one who is insubordinate" or *lotlhwI' *"the one who
rebels".
yes indeed ; I had thought of finding the tlhIngan equivalent of
<<Defiant>>,still i wondered later on,whether a Klingon officer would
translate it in tlhingan,or he would just say the federation standard
english name in Klingon. Anyway, both {tlhIvwI'},as well as {lotlhwI'}
sound pretty cool too,
and they would certainly be fitting names for a starship as the Defiant.
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Sticking to only Klingon syllable structure, you would probably
> transliterate the name as *DIvay'enIt*, to avoid a consonant cluster
> without a vowel. Elision of the vowel *'It*, turning C*I*C into CC, seems
> to be a common alternate pronunciation of Klingon names, as in *wo'rIv* >
> "Worf".
>
> You might also consider translating the name Defiant directly as
> *tlhIvwI'* "the one who is insubordinate" or *lotlhwI' *"the one who
> rebels".
>
>
> *batlh bIHeghjaj*
>
> Doug Henning
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 2, 2015 11:38 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> > There is no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in Klingon
>
> I hadn't thought of that ! thanks !
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m not a linguist. So, I=E2=80=99m faking it as an amateur in th=
e following
> message. Just because I=E2=80=99m not official, it doesn=E2=80=99t mean I=
haven=E2=80=99t been
> listening to actual linguists here and learned a few things that I=E2=80=
=99d like
> to pass on.
>
> While there is no canon way to say =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D in Klingon, =
and your
> transliteration is reasonably good, I=E2=80=99d suggest {DI=E2=80=99vay=
=E2=80=99ent} or
> {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}. There is no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in Klingon, and the =
{v} is often substituted
> in transliterations, and I definitely use a subtle glottal stop between t=
he
> =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D when I say =E2=80=9CDefiant=
=E2=80=9D. The =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t bl=
end together as
> they do in =E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D.
>
> I suspect it=E2=80=99s due to the way we shift from high (i, e) to low vo=
wels (a,
> o, u) vowels naturally, as in =E2=80=9Ctick tock=E2=80=9D but never =E2=
=80=9Ctock tick=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnicknack=E2=80=9D
> and never =E2=80=9Cnacknick=E2=80=9D. In =E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D the =E2=80=
=9Ci=E2=80=9D is pronounced as a long =E2=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D, like
> =E2=80=9Cveeeyah=E2=80=9D (high to low vowel glide), but in =E2=80=9CDefi=
ant=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D is
> pronounced =E2=80=9Cah=E2=80=9D, which is lower than the schwa of the =E2=
=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D, so we break it,
> either with a glottal stop, or an inserted =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D sound, and=
we=E2=80=99ve already
> used the {ay} to represent the long =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Ceye=E2=
=80=9D) sound=E2=80=A6
>
> So, I guess it might also be transliterated as {DIvayyent}, if you are
> really bothered by the glottal stop.
>
> There is no singular right way to transliterate. But using =E2=80=9Cf=E2=
=80=9D is not
> really okay, since Klingons don=E2=80=99t have that phoneme in their lang=
uage.
>
> So, my vote is for {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}, though several others are accepta=
ble.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:41 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> since the defiant is shown in episodes where klingon/klingons appear too,=
i
> have been wondering how are we to say <<defiant>> in thlIngan.
>
> I don't know if it has a canon name,so at first I searched if there is a
> klingon verb meaning <<to defy>>,but i found none. so next I thought of h=
ow
> would one translate/describe the meaning of <<defiant>> in klingon.
>
> but I didn't get far with that thought,because this thought occured to me=
..
>
> whenever lets say an english ship arrives at a greek port,no greek
> authority would go about translating her name in greek ; it would either
> write her name in english,or write in greek her english name (the way it =
is
> pronounced).
>
> so I think that maybe the most logical thing to do,was for a klingon to
> simply say {DIfayant}
>
> is there a canon way,to say defiant ?
>
> qunnoQ HoD
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>><span>=C2=A0 </span><span>You might also consider=
translating the name Defiant directly as <b>tlhIvwI'</b> "the one=
who is insubordinate" or <span><b>lotlhwI' </b>"the one who =
rebels".<br><br></span></span></div><div><span><span>yes indeed ; I ha=
d thought of finding the tlhIngan equivalent of <<Defiant>>,sti=
ll i wondered later on,whether a Klingon officer would translate it in tlhi=
ngan,or he would just say the federation standard english name in Klingon. =
Anyway, both {tlhIvwI'},as well as {lotlhwI'} sound pretty cool too=
,<br></span></span></div><div><span><span>and they would certainly be fitti=
ng names for a starship as the Defiant.<br></span></span></div><div><span><=
/span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Doug Henning <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:likethemagician@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">likethemagician@gma=
il.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div st=
yle=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman,new yor=
k,times,serif;font-size:16px"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>Sticking to only Kling=
on syllable structure, you would probably transliterate the name as <b>DIva=
y'enIt</b>, to avoid a consonant cluster without a vowel. Elision of th=
e vowel <b>'It</b>,=C2=A0turning C<b>I</b>C=C2=A0into CC, seems to be a=
common alternate pronunciation of Klingon names, as in <b>wo'rIv</b> &=
gt; "Worf".</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><br></span></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><span>You might also consider translating the name Defiant =
directly as <b>tlhIvwI'</b> "the one who is insubordinate" or=
<span><b>lotlhwI' </b>"the one who rebels".</span></span></d=
iv><div><br></div><div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:garamond,'new york',times,serif;line-height:normal;font-size:14pt=
" dir=3D"ltr"><b>batlh bIHeghjaj</b></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font colo=
r=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"font-family:garamond,'new york',times,s=
erif;line-height:normal;font-size:14pt"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family=
:garamond,'new york',times,serif;line-height:normal;font-size:14pt"=
>Doug Henning<br></div></font></span></div><div><div class=3D"h5"> <br><di=
v><br><br></div><div style=3D"display:block"> <div style=3D"font-family:tim=
es new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px"> <div style=3D"font-famil=
y:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> On Monday,=
November 2, 2015 11:38 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> </font> </div> =
<br><br> <div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>> There is no =E2=80=9Cf=
=E2=80=9D in Klingon<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>I hadn'=
t thought of that ! thanks !<br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none=
"><div>On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br clear=
=3D"none"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>I=E2=80=99=
m not a linguist. So, I=E2=80=99m faking it as an amateur in the following =
message. Just because I=E2=80=99m not official, it doesn=E2=80=99t mean I h=
aven=E2=80=99t been listening to actual linguists here and learned a few th=
ings that I=E2=80=99d like to pass on.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>W=
hile there is no canon way to say =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D in Klingon, and=
your transliteration is reasonably good, I=E2=80=99d suggest {DI=E2=80=99v=
ay=E2=80=99ent} or {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}. There is no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in =
Klingon, and the {v} is often substituted in transliterations, and I defini=
tely use a subtle glottal stop between the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=
=9Ca=E2=80=9D when I say =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D. The =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D=
and =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t blend together as they do in =E2=80=
=9Cvia=E2=80=9D.<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I suspect it=E2=80=99s d=
ue to the way we shift from high (i, e) to low vowels (a, o, u) vowels natu=
rally, as in =E2=80=9Ctick tock=E2=80=9D but never =E2=80=9Ctock tick=E2=80=
=9D, =E2=80=9Cnicknack=E2=80=9D and never =E2=80=9Cnacknick=E2=80=9D. In =
=E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D is pronounced as a long =E2=
=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D, like =E2=80=9Cveeeyah=E2=80=9D (high to low vowel glide),=
but in =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D is pronounced =
=E2=80=9Cah=E2=80=9D, which is lower than the schwa of the =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=
=9D, so we break it, either with a glottal stop, or an inserted =E2=80=9Cy=
=E2=80=9D sound, and we=E2=80=99ve already used the {ay} to represent the l=
ong =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Ceye=E2=80=9D) sound=E2=80=A6</div><div><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div><div>So, I guess it might also be transliterated as =
{DIvayyent}, if you are really bothered by the glottal stop.</div><div><br =
clear=3D"none"></div><div>There is no singular right way to transliterate. =
But using =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D is not really okay, since Klingons don=E2=80=
=99t have that phoneme in their language.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div>So, my vote is for {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}, though several others are ac=
ceptable.<br clear=3D"none"><div><br clear=3D"none"><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px"></span><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmIt tI'wI'n=
uv</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<br clear=3D"none"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>On Nov 2, =
2015, at 10:41 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> w=
rote:</div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div><div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br clear=3D"none">since the defiant is shown in episodes where klingon/klin=
gons appear too,i have been wondering how are we to say <<defiant>=
> in thlIngan.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">I don't know if =
it has a canon name,so at first I searched if there is a klingon verb meani=
ng <<to defy>>,but i found none. so next I thought of how would=
one translate/describe the meaning of <<defiant>> in klingon.<=
br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">but I didn't get far with that tho=
ught,because this thought occured to me..<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"no=
ne">whenever lets say an english ship arrives at a greek port,no greek auth=
ority would go about translating her name in greek ; it would either write =
her name in english,or write in greek her english name (the way it is prono=
unced).<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">so I think that maybe the most=
logical thing to do,was for a klingon to simply say {DIfayant}<br clear=3D=
"none"><br clear=3D"none">is there a canon way,to say defiant ?<br clear=3D=
"none"><br clear=3D"none">qunnoQ HoD<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">Tlhingan-=
hol mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>=
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li.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org=
/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br clear=3D"none"></div></blockquote></d=
iv><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><br clear=3D"none">__________=
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<br clear=3D"none"></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div>=
<br><div>_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">=
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailt=
o:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br clear=
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