[101827] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Defiant
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Doug Henning)
Mon Nov 2 13:56:31 2015
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:56:10 +0000 (UTC)
From: Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJYuVoVVh68zTcOsAdfU82u42ttQtTx=Ws0K8W2L1+-mg@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Sticking to only Klingon syllable structure, you would probably translitera=
te the name as DIvay'enIt, to avoid a consonant cluster without a vowel. El=
ision of the vowel 'It,=C2=A0turning CIC=C2=A0into CC, seems to be a common=
alternate pronunciation of Klingon names, as in wo'rIv > "Worf".
You might also consider translating the name Defiant directly as tlhIvwI' "=
the one who is insubordinate" or lotlhwI' "the one who rebels".
=C2=A0batlh bIHeghjaj
Doug Henning
=20
On Monday, November 2, 2015 11:38 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> w=
rote:
=20
> There is no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in Klingon
I hadn't thought of that ! thanks !
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wro=
te:
I=E2=80=99m not a linguist. So, I=E2=80=99m faking it as an amateur in the =
following message. Just because I=E2=80=99m not official, it doesn=E2=80=99=
t mean I haven=E2=80=99t been listening to actual linguists here and learne=
d a few things that I=E2=80=99d like to pass on.
While there is no canon way to say =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D in Klingon, an=
d your transliteration is reasonably good, I=E2=80=99d suggest {DI=E2=80=99=
vay=E2=80=99ent} or {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}. There is no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in=
Klingon, and the {v} is often substituted in transliterations, and I defin=
itely use a subtle glottal stop between the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=
=9Ca=E2=80=9D when I say =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D. The =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D=
and =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t blend together as they do in =E2=80=
=9Cvia=E2=80=9D.
I suspect it=E2=80=99s due to the way we shift from high (i, e) to low vowe=
ls (a, o, u) vowels naturally, as in =E2=80=9Ctick tock=E2=80=9D but never =
=E2=80=9Ctock tick=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnicknack=E2=80=9D and never =E2=80=9C=
nacknick=E2=80=9D. In =E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D is pron=
ounced as a long =E2=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D, like =E2=80=9Cveeeyah=E2=80=9D (high =
to low vowel glide), but in =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=
=9D is pronounced =E2=80=9Cah=E2=80=9D, which is lower than the schwa of th=
e =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D, so we break it, either with a glottal stop, or an in=
serted =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D sound, and we=E2=80=99ve already used the {ay} t=
o represent the long =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Ceye=E2=80=9D) sound=E2=
=80=A6
So, I guess it might also be transliterated as {DIvayyent}, if you are real=
ly bothered by the glottal stop.
There is no singular right way to transliterate. But using =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=
=9D is not really okay, since Klingons don=E2=80=99t have that phoneme in t=
heir language.
So, my vote is for {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}, though several others are acceptabl=
e.
pItlhlojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:41 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
since the defiant is shown in episodes where klingon/klingons appear too,i =
have been wondering how are we to say <<defiant>> in thlIngan.
I don't know if it has a canon name,so at first I searched if there is a kl=
ingon verb meaning <<to defy>>,but i found none. so next I thought of how w=
ould one translate/describe the meaning of <<defiant>> in klingon.
but I didn't get far with that thought,because this thought occured to me..
whenever lets say an english ship arrives at a greek port,no greek authorit=
y would go about translating her name in greek ; it would either write her =
name in english,or write in greek her english name (the way it is pronounce=
d).
so I think that maybe the most logical thing to do,was for a klingon to sim=
ply say {DIfayant}
is there a canon way,to say defiant ?
qunnoQ HoD
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Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px"><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441590" dir=3D"ltr"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1=
_1446142924582_441695">Sticking to only Klingon syllable structure, you wou=
ld probably transliterate the name as <b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_4=
41999">DIvay'enIt</b>, to avoid a consonant cluster without a vowel. Elisio=
n of the vowel <b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_442279">'It</b>, tu=
rning C<b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_442143">I</b>C into CC, see=
ms to be a common alternate pronunciation of Klingon names, as in <b>wo'rIv=
</b> > "Worf".</span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441590"=
dir=3D"ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_4=
41590" dir=3D"ltr"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441953">You might=
also consider translating the name Defiant directly as <b id=3D"yui_3_16_0=
_1_1446142924582_441771">tlhIvwI'</b> "the one who is insubordinate" or <sp=
an id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441736"><b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_144614292=
4582_441738">lotlhwI' </b>"the one who rebels".</span></span></div><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441590"><br></div><div></div><div id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441622"> </div><div class=3D"signature" id=3D"y=
ui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441629"><div style=3D"font-family:garamond, 'new =
york', times, serif;line-height:normal;font-size:14pt;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_=
1446142924582_441691" dir=3D"ltr"><b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_44243=
0">batlh bIHeghjaj</b></div><div style=3D"font-family:garamond, 'new york',=
times, serif;line-height:normal;font-size:14pt;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_144614=
2924582_441689"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:garamond, 'new york', t=
imes, serif;line-height:normal;font-size:14pt;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14461429=
24582_441631">Doug Henning<br></div></div> <br><div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR=
" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441661"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yaho=
o_quoted" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441778" style=3D"display: block;=
"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font=
-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441777"> <div style=3D"font-=
family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, san=
s-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441776"> <div d=
ir=3D"ltr"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Monday, November 2, 2015 11=
:38 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br=
><br> <div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_44178=
9"><div id=3D"yiv0405831500"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441788">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441806"><div id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_1_1446142924582_442422">> There is no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in Klingo=
n<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>I hadn't thought of that ! tha=
nks !<br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv0405831500gmail_extra" id=3D=
"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441787"><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv040=
5831500gmail_quote" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441786">On Mon, Nov 2,=
2015 at 6:22 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" sha=
pe=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>=
</span> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"yiv0405831500gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441785"><div class=3D"yiv0405831500yqt7=
378515330" id=3D"yiv0405831500yqt36357"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;=
" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441784"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14461429=
24582_442425">I=E2=80=99m not a linguist. So, I=E2=80=99m faking it as an a=
mateur in the following message. Just because I=E2=80=99m not official, it =
doesn=E2=80=99t mean I haven=E2=80=99t been listening to actual linguists h=
ere and learned a few things that I=E2=80=99d like to pass on.</div><div><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>While there is no canon way to say =E2=80=9CDefiant=
=E2=80=9D in Klingon, and your transliteration is reasonably good, I=E2=80=
=99d suggest {DI=E2=80=99vay=E2=80=99ent} or {DIvay=E2=80=99ent}. There is =
no =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D in Klingon, and the {v} is often substituted in tran=
sliterations, and I definitely use a subtle glottal stop between the =E2=80=
=9Ci=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D when I say =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D.=
The =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t blend togeth=
er as they do in =E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D.<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_144614292458=
2_442272"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_44=
1804">I suspect it=E2=80=99s due to the way we shift from high (i, e) to lo=
w vowels (a, o, u) vowels naturally, as in =E2=80=9Ctick tock=E2=80=9D but =
never =E2=80=9Ctock tick=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnicknack=E2=80=9D and never =E2=
=80=9Cnacknick=E2=80=9D. In =E2=80=9Cvia=E2=80=9D the =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D i=
s pronounced as a long =E2=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D, like =E2=80=9Cveeeyah=E2=80=9D =
(high to low vowel glide), but in =E2=80=9CDefiant=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9Ci=
=E2=80=9D is pronounced =E2=80=9Cah=E2=80=9D, which is lower than the schwa=
of the =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D, so we break it, either with a glottal stop, or=
an inserted =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D sound, and we=E2=80=99ve already used the =
{ay} to represent the long =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Ceye=E2=80=9D) soun=
d=E2=80=A6</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441802"><br clear=3D"=
none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441800">So, I guess it mi=
ght also be transliterated as {DIvayyent}, if you are really bothered by th=
e glottal stop.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441798"><br clea=
r=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441796">There is no =
singular right way to transliterate. But using =E2=80=9Cf=E2=80=9D is not r=
eally okay, since Klingons don=E2=80=99t have that phoneme in their languag=
e.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441794"><br clear=3D"none"></=
div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441783">So, my vote is for {DIvay=
=E2=80=99ent}, though several others are acceptable.<br clear=3D"none"><div=
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441782"><br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"yui=
_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441781">
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;"></span><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_4417=
91">pItlh</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1446142924582_441780">lojmIt tI'wI'n=
uv</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<br clear=3D"none"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"yiv040=
5831500h5"><div>On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:41 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a rel=3D"nofol=
low" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br=
clear=3D"none"></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"yiv0405831500h5"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">since the defiant is shown in episodes where =
klingon/klingons appear too,i have been wondering how are we to say <<=
;defiant>> in thlIngan.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">I don't =
know if it has a canon name,so at first I searched if there is a klingon ve=
rb meaning <<to defy>>,but i found none. so next I thought of h=
ow would one translate/describe the meaning of <<defiant>> in k=
lingon.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">but I didn't get far with that=
thought,because this thought occured to me..<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">whenever lets say an english ship arrives at a greek port,no gree=
k authority would go about translating her name in greek ; it would either =
write her name in english,or write in greek her english name (the way it is=
pronounced).<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">so I think that maybe th=
e most logical thing to do,was for a klingon to simply say {DIfayant}<br cl=
ear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">is there a canon way,to say defiant ?<br cl=
ear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">qunnoQ HoD<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></=
div>
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">Tlhingan-=
hol mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymail=
to=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Tlhinga=
n-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollo=
w" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></=
div></div><br clear=3D"none">______________________________________________=
_<br clear=3D"none">
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</a><br clear=3D"none">
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lhingan-hol</a><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none"></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div>=
<br><div class=3D"yqt7378515330" id=3D"yqt47286">__________________________=
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