[101807] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Significance of constructed languages
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Mon Nov 2 10:35:57 2015
In-Reply-To: <EC1E601C-4ADB-47EC-B0BD-EF2384FC9D3A@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:35:41 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> The rest is pretty much spot on. You are coming along nicely in your
translation skill.
thank you very much ! I have to say that I'm really enjoying this ! the
more I try,the more I love Klingon.
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Comments below.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 9:45 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
> and now I will try to translate the Klingon sentences, that I failed
> yesterday to translate. the idea came to me,that since klingon is written
> backwards (OVS),then to translate it I have to go/think in the same
> opposite direction. (I don't know if this makes sense). anyway the
> translation came out as follows.
> ...
> > DIp DachenmoH 'e' DaHechchugh, {-bogh} yIlIjQo'
> don't forget the {-bogh},if you intend to mean that the noun is construct=
ed
>
>
> Very close. =E2=80=9CDon=E2=80=99t forget {-bogh} if you intend that you =
form a noun.=E2=80=9D You
> are the subject of {chenmoH}. There is no indefinite subject.
>
> ...
> > {nughomchoHmoH} qoj {nuyIrchoHmoH} 'e' DaHechba'.
> did you intend <<they make us meet>> or <<they make us gather>> ?
>
>
> There=E2=80=99s no question here. He used the verb suffix {-ba=E2=80=99},=
not {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9CYou
> obviously intend =E2=80=98They cause us to begin to meet,' and/or =E2=80=
=98They cause us to
> begin to gather.=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D
>
> Meanwhile, I wonder why add {-choH} to either of these verbs. If you caus=
e
> meeting and/or gathering, you are causing a change of state. I don=E2=80=
=99t see a
> reason to call attention to the specific moment of the initiation of the
> action. I also suspect that {yIr} needs a direct object and probably shou=
ld
> have been {yIr=E2=80=99egh} or {yIrchuq}, or generally wasn=E2=80=99t a p=
articularly good
> choice for the verb.
>
> If you want to imply that we haven=E2=80=99t met before, then {qIH} would=
have
> been a better choice. {nuqIHmoH}.
>
> > mu'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.
> the whole sentences are not. the verb is absent however
>
>
> {wot=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} is one word, so there is no =E2=80=9Chowever=E2=
=80=9D. =E2=80=9CThe main verb is absent.=E2=80=9D
> I=E2=80=99m using the word =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D to represent special si=
gnificance or importance,
> which is what {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99} suggests as a noun suffix. {bIHbe=E2=
=80=99} means =E2=80=9CThey are
> not=E2=80=9D. So, =E2=80=9CThey are not complete sentences."
>
> > ngIq Hol chenmoHlu'bogh
> each language which they created
>
>
> The subject it indefinite, so there is no =E2=80=9Cthey=E2=80=9D. {ngIq} =
means =E2=80=9Csingle=E2=80=9D,
> not =E2=80=9Ceach=E2=80=9D. This would be =E2=80=9Ca single language whic=
h is formed.=E2=80=9D
>
> The rest is pretty much spot on. You are coming along nicely in your
> translation skill.
>
> I was much slower. Qanqor had a hard time getting certain basic Klingon
> grammatical ideas across to me. I was stubbornly stupid about not getting
> that adjectival verbs precede subjects when used as a verb, but follow
> nouns when used as an adjective. Then, for no recognizable reason, it
> clicked. Then he took the vow and for a month he refused to write anythin=
g
> in English. People would write questions about the language in English an=
d
> he=E2=80=99d answer in Klingon. He assigned me the task of translating hi=
s answers
> for those who couldn=E2=80=99t understand them.
>
> It was a huge break for me, because it gave me large volumes of very
> well-written Klingon text to translate. In those days, a LOT of what was
> written here in Klingon was very badly formed, so it was hard to learn
> because a beginner couldn=E2=80=99t tell which problems were in the stude=
nt=E2=80=99s
> ability to translate FROM Klingon, and which ones were in the writer=E2=
=80=99s
> ability to translate INTO Klingon. Qanqor was writing well-formed Klingon
> well before anyone else.
>
> Many more can write in well-formed Klingon now. These are salad days...
>
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>> The rest is pretty much spot on. You are coming =
along nicely in your translation skill.<br><br></div>thank you very much !=
=C2=A0 I have to say that I'm really enjoying this ! the more I try,the=
more I love Klingon.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"=
><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitt=
i7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Comments below.<div><span class=3D""><b=
r><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 2, 2015, at 9:45 AM, =
qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihko=
un@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>...</d=
iv></div><span class=3D"">and now I will try to translate the Klingon sente=
nces, that I failed yesterday to translate. the idea came to me,that since =
klingon is written backwards (OVS),then to translate it I have to go/think =
in the same opposite direction. (I don't know if this makes sense). any=
way the translation came out as follows.<br></span>...<span class=3D""><br>=
> DIp DachenmoH 'e' DaHechchugh, {-bogh} yIlIjQo'<br>don'=
;t forget the {-bogh},if you intend to mean that the noun is constructed<br=
></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Very close. =E2=80=9CD=
on=E2=80=99t forget {-bogh} if you intend that you form a noun.=E2=80=9D Yo=
u are the subject of {chenmoH}. There is no indefinite subject.</div><br><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">...<span class=3D""><br>> =
{nughomchoHmoH} qoj {nuyIrchoHmoH} 'e' DaHechba'.<br>did you in=
tend <<they make us meet>> or <<they make us gather>&g=
t; ? <br></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There=E2=80=99=
s no question here. He used the verb suffix {-ba=E2=80=99}, not {-=E2=80=98=
a=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9CYou obviously intend =E2=80=98They cause us to begin =
to meet,' and/or =E2=80=98They cause us to begin to gather.=E2=80=99=E2=
=80=9D=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Meanwhile, I wonder why add {-choH} t=
o either of these verbs. If you cause meeting and/or gathering, you are cau=
sing a change of state. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to call attention to t=
he specific moment of the initiation of the action. I also suspect that {yI=
r} needs a direct object and probably should have been {yIr=E2=80=99egh} or=
{yIrchuq}, or generally wasn=E2=80=99t a particularly good choice for the =
verb.</div><div><br></div><div>If you want to imply that we haven=E2=80=99t=
met before, then {qIH} would have been a better choice. {nuqIHmoH}.</div><=
span class=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">> mu=
'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.<br>the whole sentences =
are not. the verb is absent however <br></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div></span><div>{wot=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} is one word, so there is no =E2=
=80=9Chowever=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9CThe main verb is absent.=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=
=99m using the word =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D to represent special significanc=
e or importance, which is what {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99} suggests as a noun su=
ffix. {bIHbe=E2=80=99} means =E2=80=9CThey are not=E2=80=9D. So, =E2=80=9CT=
hey are not complete sentences."</div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote=
type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">> ngIq Hol chenmoHlu'bogh<br>ea=
ch language which they created<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
/span><div>The subject it indefinite, so there is no =E2=80=9Cthey=E2=80=9D=
. {ngIq} means =E2=80=9Csingle=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Ceach=E2=80=9D. This w=
ould be =E2=80=9Ca single language which is formed.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br>=
</div><div>The rest is pretty much spot on. You are coming along nicely in =
your translation skill.</div><div><br></div><div>I was much slower. Qanqor =
had a hard time getting certain basic Klingon grammatical ideas across to m=
e. I was stubbornly stupid about not getting that adjectival verbs precede =
subjects when used as a verb, but follow nouns when used as an adjective. T=
hen, for no recognizable reason, it clicked. Then he took the vow and for a=
month he refused to write anything in English. People would write question=
s about the language in English and he=E2=80=99d answer in Klingon. He assi=
gned me the task of translating his answers for those who couldn=E2=80=99t =
understand them.</div><div><br></div><div>It was a huge break for me, becau=
se it gave me large volumes of very well-written Klingon text to translate.=
In those days, a LOT of what was written here in Klingon was very badly fo=
rmed, so it was hard to learn because a beginner couldn=E2=80=99t tell whic=
h problems were in the student=E2=80=99s ability to translate FROM Klingon,=
and which ones were in the writer=E2=80=99s ability to translate INTO Klin=
gon. Qanqor was writing well-formed Klingon well before anyone else.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Many more can write in well-formed Klingon now. These ar=
e salad days...</div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br></div></blockquote></div><b=
r></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
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l" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br></div></blockquote></span></div><br></div></div><br>____________________=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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