[101806] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Significance of constructed languages
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Nov 2 10:20:22 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:20:07 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cLD6FNyMprqAvqBbigJui1cJmQXO0znCG2wuZYzW-gj3A@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Comments below.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 9:45 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> ...
> and now I will try to translate the Klingon sentences, that I failed =
yesterday to translate. the idea came to me,that since klingon is =
written backwards (OVS),then to translate it I have to go/think in the =
same opposite direction. (I don't know if this makes sense). anyway the =
translation came out as follows.
> ...
> > DIp DachenmoH 'e' DaHechchugh, {-bogh} yIlIjQo'
> don't forget the {-bogh},if you intend to mean that the noun is =
constructed
Very close. =E2=80=9CDon=E2=80=99t forget {-bogh} if you intend that you =
form a noun.=E2=80=9D You are the subject of {chenmoH}. There is no =
indefinite subject.
> ...
> > {nughomchoHmoH} qoj {nuyIrchoHmoH} 'e' DaHechba'.
> did you intend <<they make us meet>> or <<they make us gather>> ?=20
There=E2=80=99s no question here. He used the verb suffix {-ba=E2=80=99}, =
not {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9CYou obviously intend =E2=80=98They =
cause us to begin to meet,' and/or =E2=80=98They cause us to begin to =
gather.=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D=20
Meanwhile, I wonder why add {-choH} to either of these verbs. If you =
cause meeting and/or gathering, you are causing a change of state. I =
don=E2=80=99t see a reason to call attention to the specific moment of =
the initiation of the action. I also suspect that {yIr} needs a direct =
object and probably should have been {yIr=E2=80=99egh} or {yIrchuq}, or =
generally wasn=E2=80=99t a particularly good choice for the verb.
If you want to imply that we haven=E2=80=99t met before, then {qIH} =
would have been a better choice. {nuqIHmoH}.
> > mu'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.
> the whole sentences are not. the verb is absent however=20
{wot=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} is one word, so there is no =E2=80=9Chowever=E2=80=
=9D. =E2=80=9CThe main verb is absent.=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m using the =
word =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D to represent special significance or =
importance, which is what {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99} suggests as a noun =
suffix. {bIHbe=E2=80=99} means =E2=80=9CThey are not=E2=80=9D. So, =
=E2=80=9CThey are not complete sentences."
> > ngIq Hol chenmoHlu'bogh
> each language which they created
The subject it indefinite, so there is no =E2=80=9Cthey=E2=80=9D. {ngIq} =
means =E2=80=9Csingle=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Ceach=E2=80=9D. This would =
be =E2=80=9Ca single language which is formed.=E2=80=9D
The rest is pretty much spot on. You are coming along nicely in your =
translation skill.
I was much slower. Qanqor had a hard time getting certain basic Klingon =
grammatical ideas across to me. I was stubbornly stupid about not =
getting that adjectival verbs precede subjects when used as a verb, but =
follow nouns when used as an adjective. Then, for no recognizable =
reason, it clicked. Then he took the vow and for a month he refused to =
write anything in English. People would write questions about the =
language in English and he=E2=80=99d answer in Klingon. He assigned me =
the task of translating his answers for those who couldn=E2=80=99t =
understand them.
It was a huge break for me, because it gave me large volumes of very =
well-written Klingon text to translate. In those days, a LOT of what was =
written here in Klingon was very badly formed, so it was hard to learn =
because a beginner couldn=E2=80=99t tell which problems were in the =
student=E2=80=99s ability to translate FROM Klingon, and which ones were =
in the writer=E2=80=99s ability to translate INTO Klingon. Qanqor was =
writing well-formed Klingon well before anyone else.
Many more can write in well-formed Klingon now. These are salad days...
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Comments below.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 2, 2015, at 9:45 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">...</div></div>and =
now I will try to translate the Klingon sentences, that I failed =
yesterday to translate. the idea came to me,that since klingon is =
written backwards (OVS),then to translate it I have to go/think in the =
same opposite direction. (I don't know if this makes sense). anyway the =
translation came out as follows.<br class=3D"">...<br class=3D"">> =
DIp DachenmoH 'e' DaHechchugh, {-bogh} yIlIjQo'<br class=3D"">don't =
forget the {-bogh},if you intend to mean that the noun is constructed<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Very =
close. =E2=80=9CDon=E2=80=99t forget {-bogh} if you intend that you form =
a noun.=E2=80=9D You are the subject of {chenmoH}. There is no =
indefinite subject.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">...<br =
class=3D"">> {nughomchoHmoH} qoj {nuyIrchoHmoH} 'e' DaHechba'.<br =
class=3D"">did you intend <<they make us meet>> or =
<<they make us gather>> ? <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>There=E2=80=99s no question here. He used the verb =
suffix {-ba=E2=80=99}, not {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99}. =E2=80=9CYou =
obviously intend =E2=80=98They cause us to begin to meet,' and/or =
=E2=80=98They cause us to begin to gather.=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D </div><d=
iv><br class=3D""></div><div>Meanwhile, I wonder why add {-choH} to =
either of these verbs. If you cause meeting and/or gathering, you are =
causing a change of state. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to call =
attention to the specific moment of the initiation of the action. I also =
suspect that {yIr} needs a direct object and probably should have been =
{yIr=E2=80=99egh} or {yIrchuq}, or generally wasn=E2=80=99t a =
particularly good choice for the verb.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If you want to imply that we haven=E2=80=99t met =
before, then {qIH} would have been a better choice. {nuqIHmoH}.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">> mu'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.<br =
class=3D"">the whole sentences are not. the verb is absent however <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>{wot=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} is one word, so there is =
no =E2=80=9Chowever=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9CThe main verb is absent.=E2=80=9D =
I=E2=80=99m using the word =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D to represent special =
significance or importance, which is what {-=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99} =
suggests as a noun suffix. {bIHbe=E2=80=99} means =E2=80=9CThey are =
not=E2=80=9D. So, =E2=80=9CThey are not complete sentences."</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">> ngIq Hol chenmoHlu'bogh<br class=3D"">each =
language which they created<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
subject it indefinite, so there is no =E2=80=9Cthey=E2=80=9D. {ngIq} =
means =E2=80=9Csingle=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Ceach=E2=80=9D. This would =
be =E2=80=9Ca single language which is formed.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The rest is pretty much spot on. You are coming =
along nicely in your translation skill.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I was much slower. Qanqor had a hard time getting =
certain basic Klingon grammatical ideas across to me. I was stubbornly =
stupid about not getting that adjectival verbs precede subjects when =
used as a verb, but follow nouns when used as an adjective. Then, for no =
recognizable reason, it clicked. Then he took the vow and for a month he =
refused to write anything in English. People would write questions about =
the language in English and he=E2=80=99d answer in Klingon. He assigned =
me the task of translating his answers for those who couldn=E2=80=99t =
understand them.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It was a huge break =
for me, because it gave me large volumes of very well-written Klingon =
text to translate. In those days, a LOT of what was written here in =
Klingon was very badly formed, so it was hard to learn because a =
beginner couldn=E2=80=99t tell which problems were in the student=E2=80=99=
s ability to translate FROM Klingon, and which ones were in the =
writer=E2=80=99s ability to translate INTO Klingon. Qanqor was writing =
well-formed Klingon well before anyone else.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Many more can write in well-formed Klingon now. =
These are salad days...</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
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