[101801] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Significance of constructed languages
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Mon Nov 2 09:46:09 2015
In-Reply-To: <8DA301B1-A404-4A89-BD9D-00198D28E15F@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:45:46 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> Technically, you COULD use {-ghach} on a bare verb, but you=E2=80=99d rea=
lly only
do it as a joke or some other intentionally ungrammatical construction, to
call attention to the word in some oddly special way. Nobody does it in
normal conversation. It ain=E2=80=99t no citified way to speak proper Kling=
on.
ok, I understand. thank you.
and now I will try to translate the Klingon sentences, that I failed
yesterday to translate. the idea came to me,that since klingon is written
backwards (OVS),then to translate it I have to go/think in the same
opposite direction. (I don't know if this makes sense). anyway the
translation came out as follows.
> yIHon'eghQo'
don't doubt yourself
> DIp DachenmoH 'e' DaHechchugh, {-bogh} yIlIjQo'
don't forget the {-bogh},if you intend to mean that the noun is constructed
> qechlIj vIyajchu' 'ach qechvam 'oSbe' mu'tlheghlIj.
i undestand your idea clearly,nevertheless your sentence does not represent
this idea
> nuqDaq nuqem?
where do they bring us ?
> {nughomchoHmoH} qoj {nuyIrchoHmoH} 'e' DaHechba'.
did you intend <<they make us meet>> or <<they make us gather>> ?
> mu'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.
the whole sentences are not. the verb is absent however
> ngIq Hol chenmoHlu'bogh
each language which they created
> HIja'. majQa'. pab qellu'DI' loQ bIQagh 'ach qechmeylIj vIyajchu'.
yes. well done. although you slightly you mistook the grammar i understood
them perfectly.
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> {-ghach} turns a verb into a noun, but it is considered very strange to
> apply it to a bare verb. Okrand invented it in order to come up with the
> word {naDHa=E2=80=99ghach} =3D =E2=80=9Cdiscommendation=E2=80=9D. It reli=
es on a suffix, apparently,
> to color the nature of the noun formed. So, {valtaHghach} is =E2=80=9Ccle=
verness=E2=80=9D,
> but it relates to ongoing, consistent cleverness, and not simply a briefl=
y
> clever act. {valta=E2=80=99ghach} has more to do with the intentional and
> successful cleverness. {valqa=E2=80=99ghach} would relate to repeated epi=
sodes of
> cleverness, without implying that the person or people showed continuous
> cleverness between the episodes. So, with {-ghach} there are areas of
> subtlety in a Klingon term that would be awkward and wordy to explain in
> translation.
>
> Technically, you COULD use {-ghach} on a bare verb, but you=E2=80=99d rea=
lly only
> do it as a joke or some other intentionally ungrammatical construction, t=
o
> call attention to the word in some oddly special way. Nobody does it in
> normal conversation. It ain=E2=80=99t no citified way to speak proper Kli=
ngon.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2015, at 2:27 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > {Holmey lumutlhlu'bogh} =3D "languages which are constructed".
>
> that is what i wanted to say ! at first I tried to write <<constructed
> languages>>,but i couldn't find the exact words. then I thought of saying
> <<languages linguists constructed>> but this went south too. so finally I
> decided to try and write <<languages which are constructed>>
>
> just a question on {-ghach} because I didn't quite understand its use. is
> {-ghach} only to be glued at verbs ending in suffixes as {-be'}, {Ha'} et=
c,
> or can I put it too on verbs such as {Hurgh} ? So as to mean {Hurghghach}=
=3D
> Darkness ?
>
> ok, the time has come to confess my sin..
>
> when I try to write in Klingon,I start trying to build a sentence and
> slowly I manage to get somewhere. the sentence maybe wrong, but my mind c=
an
> process the way things ought to be. I think of the verb,then who does wha=
t
> to whom, glue the prefix, put the object first, the subject last etc..
>
> but when I try to translate from klingon to english it feels as if my min=
d
> is being tied into a knot. it feels as if I'm driving in reverse going up=
a
> mountain at night.. I'm used to sentences subject-verb-object,and when i
> try to read in the opposite order it just feels so weird !
>
> unfortunately -for the time being- i can't translate from klingon to
> english. i believe its way too premature for me unless the sentences are
> very simple.
>
> thank you very much for your comments !
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:29 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> qunnoQ HoD:
>> >> vInDa'pu' pIm. HatlhmeyDaq pIm. Hatlhmeyvo' pIm. nughmeyvo' pIm.
>>
>> De'vID:
>> > mu'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.
>>
>> Note also that {Hatlh} refers to the "country" in the sense of
>> "countryside". The political sense of a "country" or "state" is {Sep}.
>>
>> --
>> De'vID
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>> Technically, you COULD use {-ghach} on a ba=
re verb, but you=E2=80=99d really=20
only do it as a joke or some other intentionally ungrammatical=20
construction, to call attention to the word in some oddly special way.=20
Nobody does it in normal conversation. It ain=E2=80=99t no citified way to =
speak
proper Klingon.<br><br></div>ok, I understand. thank you.<br><br></div>and=
now I will try to translate the Klingon sentences, that I failed yesterday=
to translate. the idea came to me,that since klingon is written backwards =
(OVS),then to translate it I have to go/think in the same opposite directio=
n. (I don't know if this makes sense). anyway the translation came out =
as follows.<br><br>> yIHon'eghQo'<br>don't doubt yourself<br=
><br><br>> DIp DachenmoH 'e' DaHechchugh, {-bogh} yIlIjQo'<b=
r>don't forget the {-bogh},if you intend to mean that the noun is const=
ructed<br><br><br>> qechlIj vIyajchu' 'ach qechvam 'oSbe'=
; mu'tlheghlIj.<br>i undestand your idea clearly,nevertheless your sent=
ence does not represent this idea<br><br><br>> nuqDaq nuqem?<br>where do=
they bring us ?<br><br><br>> {nughomchoHmoH} qoj {nuyIrchoHmoH} 'e&=
#39; DaHechba'.<br>did you intend <<they make us meet>> or =
<<they make us gather>> ? <br><br><br>> mu'tlheghmey naQ=
bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.<br>the whole sentences are not. the verb =
is absent however <br><br><br>> ngIq Hol chenmoHlu'bogh<br>each lang=
uage which they created<br><br><br>> HIja'. majQa'. pab qellu=
9;DI' loQ bIQagh 'ach qechmeylIj vIyajchu'.<br>yes. well done. =
although you slightly you mistook the grammar i understood them perfectly.<=
br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com=
</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word"><div>{-ghach} turns a verb into a noun, but it is conside=
red very strange to apply it to a bare verb. Okrand invented it in order to=
come up with the word {naDHa=E2=80=99ghach} =3D =E2=80=9Cdiscommendation=
=E2=80=9D. It relies on a suffix, apparently, to color the nature of the no=
un formed. So, {valtaHghach} is =E2=80=9Ccleverness=E2=80=9D, but it relate=
s to ongoing, consistent cleverness, and not simply a briefly clever act. {=
valta=E2=80=99ghach} has more to do with the intentional and successful cle=
verness. {valqa=E2=80=99ghach} would relate to repeated episodes of clevern=
ess, without implying that the person or people showed continuous clevernes=
s between the episodes. So, with {-ghach} there are areas of subtlety in a =
Klingon term that would be awkward and wordy to explain in translation.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Technically, you COULD use {-ghach} on a bare verb, b=
ut you=E2=80=99d really only do it as a joke or some other intentionally un=
grammatical construction, to call attention to the word in some oddly speci=
al way. Nobody does it in normal conversation. It ain=E2=80=99t no citified=
way to speak proper Klingon.</div><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Nov 1, 20=
15, at 2:27 PM, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><div=
><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>> {Holmey lumutlhlu&#=
39;bogh} =3D "languages which are constructed".<br><br></div>that=
is what i wanted to say ! at first I tried to write <<constructed la=
nguages>>,but i couldn't find the exact words. then I thought of =
saying <<languages linguists constructed>> but this went south =
too. so finally I decided to try and write <<languages which are cons=
tructed>><br><br></div>just a question on {-ghach} because I didn'=
;t quite understand its use. is {-ghach} only to be glued at verbs ending i=
n suffixes as {-be'}, {Ha'} etc, or can I put it too on verbs such =
as {Hurgh} ? So as to mean {Hurghghach} =3D Darkness ?<br><br></div><div>ok=
, the time has come to confess my sin..<br><br>when I try to write in Kling=
on,I start trying to build a sentence and slowly I manage to get somewhere.=
the sentence maybe wrong, but my mind can process the way things ought to =
be. I think of the verb,then who does what to whom, glue the prefix, put th=
e object first, the subject last etc..<br><br></div><div>but when I try to =
translate from klingon to english it feels as if my mind is being tied into=
a knot. it feels as if I'm driving in reverse going up a mountain at n=
ight.. I'm used to sentences subject-verb-object,and when i try to read=
in the opposite order it just feels so weird !<br><br></div><div>unfortuna=
tely -for the time being- i can't translate from klingon to english. i =
believe its way too premature for me unless the sentences are very simple.<=
br><br></div><div>thank you very much for your comments !<br></div><div><br=
><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:29 PM, De'vID <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D=
"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com<=
/a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">qunnoQ HoD:<br>
<span>>> vInDa'pu' pIm. HatlhmeyDaq pIm. Hatlhmeyvo' pIm.=
nughmeyvo' pIm.<br>
<br>
</span>De'vID:<br>
<span>> mu'tlheghmey naQ bIHbe'. Dach wot'a'.<br>
<br>
</span>Note also that {Hatlh} refers to the "country" in the sens=
e of<br>
"countryside". The political sense of a "country" or &q=
uot;state" is {Sep}.<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
De'vID<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><span class=3D"">
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t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
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br></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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